Big Changes Planned for the Old Course; Hawtree to Do the Work

[Kevin Lynch]

Melvin must be beside himself on the changes...

I was thinking the same thing. Can anyone verify if the news gave him a heart attack? I hope he is okay.

I've been trading messages with him on Facebook, and he is fully disgusted.  In short, all his prior concerns / criticisms of the Links Trust seem to be coming true.

He has been watching here and grateful to Tom Doak for his efforts and grateful for the support from others here.

[Bill_McBride]

Robin,

Thanks for the prompt reply.

I must say I prefer the 10 foot(3.1m) diameter to the 16 foot (4.9m) diameter. Then the Links Trust need only cut 9cm (3.5 inches) into the 11th  Green and not 15cm (6 inches).

Well the slippery slope will be no more and now putting down towards the front will be easier – too bad (sigh)

Funny, I thought the intent of the changes was to make the course more difficult, not easier.

Will we see no one putt into Strath again?

[Jonathan Mallard]

I've looked, and haven't seen it posted here, so here goes:

Peter Dawson states "Dawson anticipates criticism of the changes, though he called it a "knee-jerk reaction."

"If they came to see me and walked out onto the course, I'm quite sure they would be fine with it," he said.

http://www.theolympian.com/2012/11/27/2333890/old-course-getting-a-new-look.html

Which begs the question if anyone (read: Tom Doak) will take him up on that.

For the record - I'm upset at the changes - especially on the 11th.

[Bill Brightly]

Peter Dawson states "Dawson anticipates criticism of the changes, though he called it a "knee-jerk reaction."

"If they came to see me and walked out onto the course, I'm quite sure they would be fine with it," he said.

As a thoroughly untrained yet completely overconfident amateur architect myself, I recognize another one when I hear him speak. A little bit of knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing...especially when couple with great power.

[Tom_Doak]

I've looked, and haven't seen it posted here, so here goes:

Peter Dawson states "Dawson anticipates criticism of the changes, though he called it a "knee-jerk reaction."

"If they came to see me and walked out onto the course, I'm quite sure they would be fine with it," he said.

http://www.theolympian.com/2012/11/27/2333890/old-course-getting-a-new-look.html

Which begs the question if anyone (read: Tom Doak) will take him up on that.

For the record - I'm upset at the changes - especially on the 11th.

Well he might have said that right after he saw that I was on my way to China and not in Edinburgh.  Of course, he also said it as he was on HIS way to Florida.

[Jud_T]

Wait a minute.  Did I miss something?  In the USA Today article yesterday it says that the corners of SIX greens will be recontoured!!  I thought we were talking about 2 greens (11 & 17)?  Is there twice as much damage scheduled to be inflicted next winter?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2012/11/27/st-andrews-old-course-changes/1730345/

[Mark McKeever]

Wait a minute.  Did I miss something?  In the USA Today article yesterday it says that the corners of SIX greens will be recontoured!!  I thought we were talking about 2 greens (11 & 17)?  Is there twice as much damage scheduled to be inflicted next winter?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/golf/2012/11/27/st-andrews-old-course-changes/1730345/

Another twist in this bad dream!

Mark

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

I emailed with Gordon Moir, director of greenkeeping for the Links Trust, about the path taken leading to the changes on the Old Course.

He also gave me his thoughts on the modifications.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/uncategorized/1033/director-of-greenkeeping-for-st-andrews-links-trust-explains-how-decision-to-alter-the-old-course-was-made

[Mike Nuzzo]

Thank you Anthony

I do not understand.
Where is the path?
They discussed it amongst themselves then did the work.

I also don't understand how you can create hole locations and not remove slope from The Eden green.

Cheers
#savetheoldcourse

[Neil_Crafter]

apparently they are reducing slope but not removing slope if you know what I mean says Gordon Muir. He must have been given a trial with the new Toro Magic Wand Contour Reducer they have been developing in secret........

[Jud_T]

What the hell does that mean?  That's is not dead flat....yet?

[Sean Walsh]

That does at least confirm the changes to the fairway on 7 are a divot issue.  I think it would be hard to argue divot repair would not be an issue in that area.  I'm sure one of our greenkeepers could provide some input about possible remedies.

This change, maybe like some of the others, appears to have decent reasoning behind it.  So, why not have an open process and explain the prospective changes, have the debate, then  the decision and work? Not Decision, Work, Debate.

[Tony_Muldoon]

Like the general golfing populace the majority of golfing journalists have been silent. 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/9709957/RandA-hits-back-after-Ian-Poulter-blasts-insane-changes-to-the-Old-Course-at-St-Andrews.html 


Whereas others recycle PR releases

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/1127/1224327142563.html

[Frank Pont]

Now I am confused.

On the one hand we hear that supposedly the R&A Championship Committee did not know about the changes till just before the announcement.

Then I read in Anthony's interview with Moir that : "the briefings given to the local golf clubs in St Andrews prior to the announcement being made were supportive"

What am I missing? It looks like this cannot both be true....

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Received an email from Gordon Moir asking me to clarify two points which I did on my blog post.

First: the locals asked for the depression in the 7th to be filled in because of divot problems. They added material two years ago but the problem persisted.

Second: the work on the 11th green will not alter existing hole locations behind the Strath Bunker and players will still be able to play shots off the back ridge so that ball will role towards the hole.

If you don't mind, please click on the link and read the story there. Maybe someday I can get a few pennies out of the website. Your support is greatly appreciated.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1033/director-of-greenkeeping-for-st-andrews-links-trust-explains-how-decision-to-alter-the-old-course-was-made

Anthony

[Rich Goodale]

Thanks for that, Anthony,  It puts things in perspective.

[Mark Johnson]

quick question --

As someone who has never played TOC but would like to someone.   does it make sense for me to rush over to play before the changes?

[Mark Pearce]

quick question --

As someone who has never played TOC but would like to someone.   does it make sense for me to rush over to play before the changes?

Not unless you can travel in time as well as space.  Work started on Monday this week.

[Jud_T]

Quote of the Day, from Geoff's site:

Fortunately there is one which has been described as a much abused old course in the little kingdom of Fife, Scotland, which has so far escaped destruction by vandals in the shape of amateur golf architects. I refer to Old St. Andrews. This is partially owing to the fact that the members have considered it too sacred to be touched, and it is also due to the opposition of such stalwarts as the late John L. Low, the Blackwells, the Hambros, Norman Boase and many others to suggested changes.
ALISTER MACKENZIE

[Paul_Turner]

And the 2002 Peter Dawson quote:

"Anyone who knows and loves St. Andrews, as most golfers do, is obviously reluctant to make changes," Peter Dawson, secretary of the R&A, told Golf World in an interview last week during the Dunhill Links Championship. "It's a bit like drawing a mustache on the Mona Lisa, but the last tee changes have been accepted and are now part of the course."

[Philippe Binette]

Best comment ever on the subject:


if you like chocolate ice cream, why would you buy vanilla ?

[William_G]

Received an email from Gordon Moir asking me to clarify two points which I did on my blog post.

First: the locals asked for the depression in the 7th to be filled in because of divot problems. They added material two years ago but the problem persisted.

Second: the work on the 11th green will not alter existing hole locations behind the Strath Bunker and players will still be able to play shots off the back ridge so that ball will role towards the hole.

If you don't mind, please click on the link and read the story there. Maybe someday I can get a few pennies out of the website. Your support is greatly appreciated.

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1033/director-of-greenkeeping-for-st-andrews-links-trust-explains-how-decision-to-alter-the-old-course-was-made

Anthony

thanks, great insight

collection areas are always a divot problem

how about hole #4?

fwiw, I'm wondering who signs Gordon's checks 

[Bill Brightly]

OK, before I ask this question and some people misconstrue my feelings...let me say that I have had a sick feeling since I first learned about the changes to TOC. Even though I have never even played there (my first trip was planned in 2013)  I have studied it and the templates it has spawned for the past eight years. I am truly upset.

But when I asked a GCA friend "What would Old Tom Morris say?" the PM answer I received was "he would say it was just dirt and grass!"


So what would OTM say if he could magically reappear today? I know what Mackenzie said, and what Tom Doak and other architects have said. But I take their comments as the ultimate sign of respect they have for the course that had such a profound impact on their work. I understand that, but do we have any hint of what OTM would have said? Perhaps he would have said "Lads, tis only dirt and grass, just golf on it and enjoy the game!" Is he really rolling over in his grave? Or laughing at the uproar?

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

In the Scotsman on Sunday, John Huggan blasts the R&A, Links Trust and the USGA. You can read the story by clicking here: http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on-sunday/sport/golf/john-huggan-sacrilege-at-st-andrews-1-2671304

OR...  you could click on my site and get to the article from there...

http://anthonypioppi.com/golf/golf/1054/scotsmans-john-huggan-lamabasts-old-course-changes


Thank for your support.

Anthony

[Marty Bonnar]

Nice article from Huggs. Must have been a long flight back from Barnbougle!
When you going to join this discussion group, John??? You'd be a VERY welcome addition.

MB.