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David_Elvins

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Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« on: November 12, 2012, 05:15:10 PM »
A bit of imagination may be needed but do you think you would enjoy playing this course?

1   SandHills           550   5
2   National Moonah   549   4
3   NGLA                   430   4
4   Royal Melbourne West   527   4
5   Merion            488   4
6   Sunningdale New   510   4
7   Shinecock hills   185   3
8   Crystal Downs   542   4
9   Cypress Point   292   4
10   Passatimpo           440   4
11   The Lakes           581   5
12   Swinley Forrest   455   4
13   Augusta National   502   4
14   Dornoch           445   4
15   Kingston Heath   157   3
16   Pine Valley           475   4
17   The Old Course   495   4
18   Pebble Beach   543   5
   Total                        8166   73

Are 8000+ yard courses really not enjoyable for the average golfer or is it more a case that not enough of them have been built by the great architects for some great ones to rise to the top?
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2012, 05:22:56 PM »
A bit of imagination may be needed but do you think you would enjoy playing this course?

1   SandHills           550   5
2   National Moonah   549   4
3   NGLA                   430   4
4   Royal Melbourne West   527   4
5   Merion            488   4
6   Sunningdale New   510   4
7   Shinecock hills   185   3
8   Crystal Downs   542   4
9   Cypress Point   292   4
10   Passatimpo           440   4
11   The Lakes           581   5
12   Swinley Forrest   455   4
13   Augusta National   502   4
14   Dornoch           445   4
15   Kingston Heath   157   3
16   Pine Valley           475   4
17   The Old Course   495   4
18   Pebble Beach   543   5
   Total                        8166   73

Are 8000+ yard courses really not enjoyable for the average golfer or is it more a case that not enough of them have been built by the great architects for some great ones to rise to the top?

Why would an average golfer play all those holes from the back tees?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2012, 05:27:45 PM »
Why would an average golfer play all those holes from the back tees?

Why not?  What exactly would stop the average golfer from playing these tees if they were the only ones on offer? 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Greg Taylor

Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2012, 05:33:14 PM »
Hello David, the 13th at Augusta has always been a par five - no?!

Would I like to play those holes - yes, absolutely...!

Would I like to play those holes off my current handicap in the monthly medal... err... no!

I think everyone would want to play them, but some serious re-calibration of everyone's scoring abilities would be required. Otherwise, it would be a soul destroying process.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2012, 05:36:05 PM »
Is it a slow news day? Who on this forum would not enjoy playing golf?

If you want diverse answers, change the question to, would you enjoy walking and not playing this course?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

jeffwarne

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Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2012, 05:48:50 PM »
Why would an average golfer play all those holes from the back tees?

Why not?  What exactly would stop the average golfer from playing these tees if they were the only ones on offer? 


In that cae I vote yes, an average golfer would enjoy that course
slope 190?
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2012, 05:49:03 PM »
Yes and no.

Yes, those are all great holes on great golf courses, and I'd love to see them all.

No, I've tried 7800 yds. (Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA from the tips) and did not find it to be fun in the least.  Couldn't reach the fairways, could reach the corner of the doglegs, and so forth.  (5 handicap of average length)
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ivan Morris

Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2012, 06:07:18 PM »
I'd like to play that course once but only once.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2012, 06:19:07 PM »
A bit of imagination may be needed but do you think you would enjoy playing this course?

8   Crystal Downs   542   4

Are 8000+ yard courses really not enjoyable for the average golfer or is it more a case that not enough of them have been built by the great architects for some great ones to rise to the top?

I am not sure exactly how you decided to choose your pars for the various holes, but as far as I know the 8th at Crystal Downs has still NEVER been hit and held in two shots, so calling it a par-4 seems a bit extreme.

To your general point, perhaps some people would enjoy 8000 yards -- although they would probably enjoy it more if you called it a par-76 or 78, as it would play for most mortals.  But I've never heard much of anyone clamor for a course that long -- even the pros -- so I likely will not be out front in the movement to 8000-yard courses.

Keith OHalloran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2012, 06:28:31 PM »
Tom,
Interesting that no pros are clamoring for 8000 yard courses. If Pat Mucci is right that people should stretch themselves to keep a competitive golfing edge, you would think a pro would need about 8000 to keep competitive. Sort of like a baseball player swinging a weighted bat.

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2012, 07:29:55 PM »
This thread seems to be the counterpoint to Mr. Mucci's thread of play it back.  It certainly makes for a different game for the 225 yard driver of the ball.

Is there a point to a course like this?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2012, 10:04:43 PM »

To your general point, perhaps some people would enjoy 8000 yards -- although they would probably enjoy it more if you called it a par-76 or 78, as it would play for most mortals. 

Actually, after thinking about this some more, David, my question would be why no one has clamored for par-76 golf courses in years past?  If you want more practice hitting longer shots, wouldn't that be the way to go?

In fact, courses of the very early 1900's did have pars of 76 and higher ... the Haskell ball and the steel shaft brought them down, and nobody lengthened courses at that time to try and maintain the challenge of breaking 80.

Sam Morrow

Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2012, 10:08:38 PM »
Is it a slow news day? Who on this forum would not enjoy playing golf?

If you want diverse answers, change the question to, would you enjoy walking and not playing this course?

That routing would suck.

Gary Slatter

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2012, 10:26:20 PM »
I would enjoy playing the course, once from the yardages noted, more often from 6600 yards.   Hope they have carts :)
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2012, 02:09:09 AM »
Hello David, the 13th at Augusta has always been a par five - no?!

Would I like to play those holes - yes, absolutely...!

Would I like to play those holes off my current handicap in the monthly medal... err... no!

I think everyone would want to play them, but some serious re-calibration of everyone's scoring abilities would be required. Otherwise, it would be a soul destroying process.

Hi Greg, 

Maybe Tom is right, lets call it a Par 77 if that is less soul destroying. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David_Elvins

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Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2012, 02:13:46 AM »
Yes and no.

Yes, those are all great holes on great golf courses, and I'd love to see them all.

No, I've tried 7800 yds. (Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA from the tips) and did not find it to be fun in the least.  Couldn't reach the fairways, could reach the corner of the doglegs, and so forth.  (5 handicap of average length)

A.G.C.

Wasn't the problem with the course that you played that the fairway carries were too long and the doglegs in the wrong spots?  Most of the holes I have listed were designed to be par 5s or par 4.5s and several of them you have to carry the ball 50 yards off the tee to reach the fairway.  My opinion would be that long courses get a bad rap because more often than not the back tees are not designed to be played by the average golfer. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2012, 02:31:33 AM »
Actually, after thinking about this some more, David, my question would be why no one has clamored for par-76 golf courses in years past?  If you want more practice hitting longer shots, wouldn't that be the way to go?

Tom,

I thought it may have been biting off more than I could chew to advocate a 8000 yard course in the same thread as a par 78 course, but sure, why not, I would be just as interested in playing a par 78 course as a par 70.  

As mentioned in my reply to A.G Crockett, I think that long courses (as a concept) get a bad rep because forward tees give designers an excuse to never think about how the average player would play the hole from the back tee.  Whereas many of the longer holes that I list are designed to be played by the average player from the back tee.  

Longer holes to me are the least predictable holes and therefor offer the most variety, in my opinion.  Take the first at St Andrews Beach for example, over the course of a years play I would have approached that green,  with every club from 3 wood to lob wedge.   I would love to see what a good designer, such as yourself, would do if given the brief to design an 8000 yard course on a suitable site.  I bet the design would be interesting,  original and redefine what people thought about long golf courses.  And if the pros ever came to visit there would be absolutely no temptation to slow down the fairways, speed up the greens, grow ithe rough or narrow the fairways.



Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Mark Pearce

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Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2012, 03:48:46 AM »
In my book anything over 480 yards is a par 5.  Which makes that course a par 80.  And yes, I'd love to play it and hope to break 90 on a really good day.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2012, 06:42:39 AM »
Yes and no.

Yes, those are all great holes on great golf courses, and I'd love to see them all.

No, I've tried 7800 yds. (Kinderlou Forest in Valdosta, GA from the tips) and did not find it to be fun in the least.  Couldn't reach the fairways, could reach the corner of the doglegs, and so forth.  (5 handicap of average length)

A.G.C.

Wasn't the problem with the course that you played that the fairway carries were too long and the doglegs in the wrong spots?  Most of the holes I have listed were designed to be par 5s or par 4.5s and several of them you have to carry the ball 50 yards off the tee to reach the fairway.  My opinion would be that long courses get a bad rap because more often than not the back tees are not designed to be played by the average golfer. 

David,
I don't think so.  Kinderlou is terrific, and from 6600 or even 7100, I'm ok.  But unless they were going to mow a zillion acres, I just couldn't carry the ball far enough to get to short grass.  As to the position of the doglegs, I don't think I understand your point; if the doglegs were right for me a 7800 they'd be wrong at 6500, and vice versa, wouldn't they?

And of course back tees aren't designed to be played by the average golfer (whomever he might be...).  The "average golfer" simply cannot play a course that long and either enjoy it or play "average" golf.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2012, 06:56:53 AM »
&) Why does par matter?

%) Isn't it about the journey?

#) After Bethpage 2002, it is all about the carry to the fairway for Jose Comun.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2012, 08:27:02 AM »
Not sure how the rating and slope system would work here...Instant top 10 on Golf Digest...I probably wouldn't relish grinding for bogey on every hole...If you throw in a couple short 3s and 4s you might have something... ;D
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Matthew Essig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2012, 01:40:35 PM »
You could say the course is a par 70, you could say it is par 80. It doesn't matter!

I would love to play this course as long as the par for all of those holes wasn't posted.

Golf is about having the fewest strokes, or beating an opponent. Come to think of it, this would be an amazing match play course; just having a better score than your opponent.
"Good GCA should offer an interesting golfing challenge to the golfer not a difficult golfing challenge." Jon Wiggett

Ulrich Mayring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2012, 04:47:56 AM »
I don't know about a par 80 course. Wouldn't it have a lot of par 5s? Is that fun to play? Can anyone design a 500 yard hole that is a world class hole as a par 4 as well as a par 5?

Ulrich
Golf Course Exposé (300+ courses reviewed), Golf CV (how I keep track of 'em)

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2012, 07:07:56 AM »
Can anyone design a 500 yard hole that is a world class hole as a par 4 as well as a par 5?

Ulrich

If 2 and 4 at Royal Melbourne West were the only two holes I could play for the rest of my life, I would be very happy. 
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Chris_Hufnagel

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Re: Would you enjoy playing this 8000+ yard course?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2012, 07:13:33 AM »
Can anyone design a 500 yard hole that is a world class hole as a par 4 as well as a par 5?

The first hole I thought of is #10 at Ballyneal.  I loved it the first time through as a par four and loved it even more as a par 5 on my second loop...