Long(-ish) par 4s with tiny greens

[Jeff_Mingay]

This is a polarizing, love it or hate it kinda concept, I think... one that can work really well or very poorly.

Where are some of the best long(-ish) par 4s with tiny greens? And, why do the tiny greens at these particular holes work well, in your opinion?

[JESII]

Perferct for the half-par concept. Hard par - easy bogey.

Wish I had a good example.

#'s 6 and 14 at Shinnecock can be but 14 seems to have helping wind alot so it's shorter.

[JMEvensky]

WF-W must have several that qualify.

How big is the 9th green at Pebble Beach?

[Jeff_Mingay]

Mike DeVries' 15th hole at Kingsley comes to my mind.

I've heard polarizing opinions (love it/hate it) about this hole, for sure. I like it. It's a very unique hole, memorable, and tough "to par". Why does it work? One reason is the massive bail out left of the tiny green. There's plenty of room for a "decent miss" left and opportunity to get up and down from there.

Obviously you can't (or shouldn't) build a tiny green at a long par 4 hole where there's no option for a "decent miss" near/around the green, I don't think. 

[Anders Rytter]

How about 15th at kingsley? Not only small, but also tabletop.

I liked it alot, maybe because it was so different from the rest of the approach shots there. Very hard, but definately makeable.

[Anders Rytter]

Mike DeVries' 15th hole at Kingsley comes to my mind.

I've heard polarizing opinions (love it/hate it) about this hole, for sure. I like it. It's a very unique hole, memorable, and tough "to par". Why does it work? One reason is the massive bail out left of the tiny green. There's plenty of room for a "decent miss" left and opportunity to get up and down from there.

Obviously you can't (or shouldn't) build a tiny green at a long par 4 hole where there's no option for a "decent miss" near/around the green, I don't think. 

You beat me to it

[Jeff_Mingay]

Great minds think alike, eh Anders

I agree, too, that the approach to Kingsley's 15th is very different from the other holes there - which is a big positive about this hole: it adds significantly to the excellent variety at Kingsley. The other interesting thing about this green is that it's the only one on the course that immediately (at least to me) appears blatantly artificial, built - in a good way, in my view.

[Jeff_Brauer]

 I love small greens at the end of long par 4 holes.  Do one on every course.

Theory is that average guys are laying up by necessity and are hitting it with wedge while long guys get a long iron test.  For scratch players, the size green needed for a long iron approach is still about 15% width and depth, or about 30 yard/90 foot circle according to the slope guide.  That is about 6000 SF, but I often do them smaller, like 5K.

So, how small a green are you talking about?

[Tyler Kearns]

Mike DeVries' 15th hole at Kingsley comes to my mind.

I've heard polarizing opinions (love it/hate it) about this hole, for sure. I like it. It's a very unique hole, memorable, and tough "to par". Why does it work? One reason is the massive bail out left of the tiny green. There's plenty of room for a "decent miss" left and opportunity to get up and down from there.

Obviously you can't (or shouldn't) build a tiny green at a long par 4 hole where there's no option for a "decent miss" near/around the green, I don't think. 

Jeff,

I'm not sure I like the prospects of getting up & down from left of the green at Kingsley, I could see ping-ponging back and forth en route to a quad. Definitely miss it short to allow for a chip/pitch up the length of the green. 

Thinking of small greens on long par 4's, the 8th at Pebble comes to mind. It's not super long on the scorecard, but don't many often hit less than driver off the tee?

TK

[Greg Gilson]

#1 at Chambers Bay. Not really sure it "works" and i know its getting some surgery....but it's definitely long (especially if your tee shot hits the up/side slope) & the green sure plays small.

[Tom_Doak]

There are always holes like this in the UK -- the Road hole at St. Andrews, the 16th at Deal, etc.  Probably a lot of them started life as three-shotters and morphed into long par-4's.  But I like the concept, for all the reasons Jeff B. mentioned.

The 8th at 9th at Pebble Beach are good examples, but really, every green at Pebble is small.

I haven't built too many small greens lately, but one that comes to mind is the 10th at Old Macdonald, a medium-sized green on a course full of large ones, on a hole that requires a difficult approach shot.  I've taken some flak for that one, but the principle is exactly what's being espoused here.

[Mark Pearce]

These holes work because they really challenge good players (par is difficult) but offer the mid-teen handicapper the hope of par but an easy-ish bogey.  The sort of hole that might have a very low index but which the bogey golfer will hope to win against his scratch opponent (because the chance of both making 5 is high).  The 9th at Elie is a good(ish) example (though the green isn't quite as small as might be).  440 yards into the wind and a small, well protected green.

[Tim Liddy]

Another good example is the 13th at Trophy Club in Lebanon, Indiana.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Theory is that average guys are laying up by necessity and are hitting it with wedge while long guys get a long iron test. 

I buy into this theory; in fact, it's exactly what I've been thinking relative to a hole at a new project I'm working on. How big of a green am I talking about? Hmmm... not sure yet, but I figure if we can create some interest around the actual green that can be mown tight too, the putting surface might not need to be even 5,000 sq. ft. Not sure yet... it's a great match-play scenario though, isn't it.

And, at the end of the day, it's a hole - whether you call it par 4 or par 5, or whatever.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff,

I'm not sure I like the prospects of getting up & down from left of the green at Kingsley...

You might not like it, Tyler, but it is an option

[Jeff_Mingay]

#1 at Chambers Bay. Not really sure it "works" and i know its getting some surgery....but it's definitely long (especially if your tee shot hits the up/side slope) & the green sure plays small.

Greg,

Last time I visited Chambers Bay, I was told that approach shots into the 1st have hit the side slope left of the green and gone out-of-bounds right of 18. Yikes!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Another good example is the 13th at Trophy Club in Lebanon, Indiana.

Who designed Trophy Club

[Mike_Clayton]

The 14th green at Royal Adelaide is the next to smallest green (behind the 8th) and it comes at the end of a 500 yard par 4 - and probably the best four on the course.

The 13th green at St Andrews Beach is a small putting green at the end of 500 yard hole - but no bunkers and a green site that gathers the ball in - which is the complete opposite of 14 at Adelaide.

Not quite the same but the smallest green on the West at Royal Melbourne is 16 - a 210 yard par three and the best long 3 in the country.

[Greg Gilson]

Mike, you beat me to the draw on SAB 13. Good call.

[Matthew Essig]

#1 at Chambers Bay. Not really sure it "works" and i know its getting some surgery....but it's definitely long (especially if your tee shot hits the up/side slope) & the green sure plays small.

Greg,

Last time I visited Chambers Bay, I was told that approach shots into the 1st have hit the side slope left of the green and gone out-of-bounds right of 18. Yikes!

It is impossible for a ball to roll 100+ yards on flat ground, through fescue then a bunker then more fescue to reach out-of-bounds right of 18... Sounds like an exaggerated story of a slope that is truly SEVERE, but it is definitely not that severe.

[Mark_F]

Not quite the same but the smallest green on the West at Royal Melbourne is 16 - a 210 yard par three and the best long 3 in the country.

Not any more Mike. 

[Andrew Bertram]

14 at inverness club

might just be the smallest green on a course of small greens and running at 480 yards

[BCrosby]

A couple of years ago Tom Doak said something to the effect (I can't find the exact quotation) that one of the main challenges of an architect was dealing with the "paradox of proportionality".

A wonderful example of that paradox is a long par 4 with a small green. Normally a green on a long par 4 should be large. It should be "proportional" to the length of expected approach shots.

Why, how and when to break that rule is an interesting architectural question. It exposes the architect to criticisms that the hole is 'unfair'. (To be clear, I am not one of those critics.) It is a criticism that - as surely as night follows day = the architect will have to answer.   

Bob

[Sean Leary]

#1 at Chambers Bay. Not really sure it "works" and i know its getting some surgery....but it's definitely long (especially if your tee shot hits the up/side slope) & the green sure plays small.

Greg,

Last time I visited Chambers Bay, I was told that approach shots into the 1st have hit the side slope left of the green and gone out-of-bounds right of 18. Yikes!

It is impossible for a ball to roll 100+ yards on flat ground, through fescue then a bunker then more fescue to reach out-of-bounds right of 18... Sounds like an exaggerated story of a slope that is truly SEVERE, but it is definitely not that severe.

Agreed.

I have had a second shot there though that caught the left part of the green but rolled off left and had 70ish yards for my 3rd.

[BCrosby]

The 5th at PII.

Bob