Pete Dye Interview on Casa, GCA, Doak courses and more, with Ally Cameo :)

[Jay Flemma]

Pete talks Casa, his bunkering styles, technology, Doak's courses at Bandon, his legacy, and more:) Ally makes a few cameo appearances and steal every scene she's in.

http://jayflemma.thegolfspace.com/?p=4742

From the interview:

JF: Those bunkers cut into the green, the little pot bunkers…are those from 10 at Pine Valley?

PD: No, no. When Alice and I went to Scotland in ’63 we saw such a variety of bunkers. Now with all respect to Trent Jones and Seth Raynor, who’s one of my favorites if not my favorite, they all had a style, and that’s fine. So every hole on that course would be the same style bunkers. But that’s not what I saw in England and Scotland and Ireland. While every course had its own individual style and character, each course also had a lot more variety in the style bunkers. They’d have waste bunkers here, pot bunkers there, strip bunkers here, big bunkers, little bunkers, so that’s what I try to do too. But I try to put the most severe bunkers where the better golfer would hit the ball! ....

JF: You called Five your best since Teeth. Why?

PD: It’s on coral. And I did some things at Five that I never did before anywhere else. I built some different green surrounds so that they really drop off!

Alice: I never saw him build a green with a 20-30 foot drop off. You have to chip back up the hill and the green is narrow…

PD: I think it’s a pretty good course and here’s why:

The game has changed dramatically from the good player’s point of view – so drastically in the last few years you can barely recognize the game. Jack Nicklaus hit it 265 and now they hit it 310 – that’s forty five yards. Nicklaus hit a 7-iron 150 yards, now its 190. So there’s 40 more yards. And don’t tell me the kids out there are stronger than Nicklaus and Palmer because they aren’t. Jack and Arnie were as strong as the kids out there now. But now the U.S.G.A. has let them hit it 40-60 sixty yards further per hole. Now if your course isn’t 8,000 yards its not gonna be competitive. They carry it 305-310!

So when you build a new golf course, you know kids will hit it a mile. So I want those guys at the back tees to have to work the ball. I did that at Five, but I still made it playable for 18 handicappers too.

The whole game has changed…I can’t say it’s for the better, but it’s better for ordinary golfers who want to drive it 300 yards, but cant putt or chip or score.

But you have to build a course so people play it and wanna come back. You can’t have it too long like the pros want it. The other day I went to Doak’s course in Oregon, and they had four par-3s in nine holes. I never saw that before, and I think that’s great!

And as always, link works.  

[Matt Kardash]

Nice interview. Must be cool for Doak to hear his mentor have something nice to say about one of his courses.

One thing I notice about Dye interviews is that he doesn't really ever seem to want to delve that deeply into the details and strategies of his holes. You can tell he is not one to over think things.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, I agree and disagree at the same time:  that bit about his bunkering style and the really candid answers he gave me on what he thinks his best courses are and his legacy are really probative. You;re right in that he doesn't break down all 18 holes like a fraction, but we do go deep in other areas.  plus he talks a bit about his love for Raynor.  And yes, the Doak props were totally unexpected, but cool.

He's a wonderful interview.  Gives you great answers every time:)

[Matt Kardash]

I don't really get how he uses different bunker styles on the same course. He seems to almost always employ grass-faced strip bunkers or pot bunkers. Am I missing something?

[Jay Flemma]

Yes...within the same course, you'll find strip bunkers, pot bunkers, and other types of bunkers of all shapes and sizes.  A good example is his work at Delray Dunes.  It's funny, I sort of noticed it before he said it, but never thought more deeply about it.  But now that I know he makes a conscious decision to do it, I see it much more clearly.

[Ross Harmon]

Nice Jay! Always fun to read a Pete interview... you can really imagine being right in the room with him!

[Jay Flemma]

Thank you, and thank you for your help too!

Hat tip: Ross H!

[Nigel Islam]

Great interview Jay. That was some really insightful stuff. I loved the part about the bathtub bunkers.

[Jay Flemma]

Thanks Nigel:) That was one of the better parts

I think one of these days, I'll interview Ally. She's really insightful too.  We recently had a great talk on Langford and Moreau, another fave of the Dyes.  And the interplay between the two of them is better than Keith and Mick:)  I hope that my marriage (whenever it is) is as blessed as theirs - (and my parents for that matter! They've been married lose to 50 years!)

[RJ_Daley]

Have you taken to calling them, Uncle Pete and Auntie Ally yet.  You sure get a lot out of a notoriously terse interviewee. 

[Jay Flemma]

RD:  Hysterical:)  Happily we're friendly and friends...I'm looking forward to iced tea and a few holes when I catch up with them in Fla or DR.  as for familial references, I'll just stick to Brother William:)

[Matt Kardash]

Jay,
Next time you do one of these interviews with the Dye's ask them about The Golf club. I never really hear their brain being picked about this course.

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, I gotta get out and play it first! I assume you mean the one in Ohio which is home to my buddy Mikey Kelley:)

[Jim_Coleman]

    Great interview.  Wish I'd been there to entertain you too.  Maybe next time.

[Jay Flemma]

I guess some people enjoy Pete's charm and warmth more than others.     For those that are desensitized to such things, we'll I'm glad your life is so rich that you can be blase to human touches.

[Eric Smith]

Jay,

I really enjoyed the interview and since you asked, I do have a question - do Pete and Alice currently have any designs in planning and or construction stage? What is the likelihood of them doing another new golf course in the US? Thanks.

[Matt Kardash]

Colleton River plantation. I know it is one of Dye's favourites, and also least-talked about courses. I remember Ron Whitten reviewing it and saying it was as good as Harbour Town and better than Long Cove.

As for the Golf Club I'd like to hear why it is the only top course of his that he has never tinkered with. Why the pond in front of the 18th green has a jagged shape instead of a smooth shape. Lastly, why he never really returned to this minimal earth-moving style (In Ran's interview with Dye he said he thought he had returned to that style. Maybe he was referring to The Honors course??). Does he ever go back and play it?

Maybe even ask him some questions about the courses of his protegés, such as Doak, Coore, Weed, etc that he has played and what he thinks of their courses and how they differ from his style?

Thanks Jay!

[Jay Flemma]

Matt, right now the Dyes are in Florida enjoying some golf!  Alice is playing 18 a day, while Pete is chilling at Gulf Stream and Delray.  He always tinkers a bit with Delray like Ross tinkered with Pinehurst 2.  My guess is they might take some time in the DR too.  I'll know more in either Dec or Jan when I catch them in the DR or Fla.

Matt, good Q.  I'll keep that one in the file to check on it.

[Jason Topp]

I would have been interested in a follow up to this answer (referring to Teeth of the Dog):

"PD: Yes. Plus, it’s a much better golf course today than when I opened it."

[Ross Harmon]

do Pete and Alice currently have any designs in planning and or construction stage? What is the likelihood of them doing another new golf course in the US? Thanks.

I recently spoke with Pete on this topic. Let's put it this way... you're never going to see a press release from Pete Dye, but he is currently pursing new projects.