Why Doesn't Sand Hollow Get More Press?

[Tom_Doak]

Not a photo thread ... I don't have the technology with me.  But I had a look around this course in Hurricane, Utah today [sad coincidence, that], and thought it was exceptional.  I know it's gotten a bit of attention, but not nearly as much as it deserves. 

If I had designed it, I think it would be famous by now, so I'm only being fair by making this post.  Kudos to John Fought and to anyone else who worked on it ... especially the routing and land plan.

[Peter Ferlicca]

Here is a photo tour I did on it in 2009.  I had an exceptional time while I was at Sand Hollow.  I did the putting course, 9 hole links course, then the full 18 hole course, and I enjoyed every minute of it.  The holes on the back nine along the bluff are obviously the standout holes, but the front nine has a lot of character and movement also.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39880.msg836717/topicseen.html#msg836717

The whole facility is top notch.  They didn't have a clubhouse when I played, but I didn't care one bit with how good everything else was.  St. George is a nice area too, not a bad place to retire.  The course is WELL WORTH the drive from vegas if you are looking for some good golf. 

[David_Tepper]

Tom -

It looks like there are 2 two courses at Sand Hollow (Championship and Links). Which is the one that impressed you so much?

http://sandhollowresort.com/golf.php#page=page-1

DT

[Matthew Essig]

Because its in Utah? You don't hear of many golfing trips to Utah...

[Tom_Doak]

Because its in Utah? You don't hear of many golfing trips to Utah...

Matthew:

I understand.  But it's about a 2 1/2 hour drive from Las Vegas up to Sand Hollow, and another half hour from there to Zion Canyon, where I spent the rest of my day.  That's a great trip for anybody, and pretty easy to do.

David:

It is the Championship course I'm referring to.  The Links is a third nine that's out away from the red rocks.  I only saw it from the road, didn't have time to look around; it had lots of short grass and connected fairways from what I could see, but it's definitely not the main attraction there.

[Jason Topp]

St George is a terrific golf destination for one who wants reasonable prices and is not too concerned about nightlife.  Sand Hollow was the best course I saw there.  Hopefully this links my pictures and not the entire thread:


http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,47337.msg1129704.html#msg1129704

[Jon Wiggett]

Good link to the photo tour from Peter. The links 9 hole course looks great though someone should get them to stop diamond cutting.

Jon

[Jeff_Brauer]

I had an opportunity to co-design what turned out to be an unrealized course with John Fought.  Very thoughtful guy and he had some ideas that were very, very good.  In general, I have liked everything I have seen of his.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Doesn't Andy Staples get a lot of credit for Sand Hollow?

I've seen a lot of photos of the course and I'm impressed with what I see. Hope to visit it soon.

[Scott_Park]

Sand Hollow is a good golf course in the summer when it is nice and green, but the course really shines in the winter months when it really firms up.  A couple of things that say a lot about the course-

1) a lot of width off of the tee, but pin location can change your tee shot by 40 yards;
2) you have to "read" the break on your drives
3) indifferent approaches that still hit the green are penalized

Ironically, the holes that are on the cliffs are probably the least interesting holes on the course.

And yes, Andy Staples did have a considerable hand in the design.

As Tom mentioned, combine a round at SH and a day trip to Zion is a great combo.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

No mention of Andy on their website.  It appears he was an associate architect of John's at the time.  You wouldn't know that from looking at Andy's website, where nearly every project is in reality a Fought, Pascuzzo or Schmidt-Curley project, but that isn't clearly spelled out.

[Paul Jones]

Golfweek Magazine has it Best in State for Public Courses - http://golfweek.com/news/2012/mar/12/golfweeks-best-courses-state-state/

I have never played golf in Utah, now I have a destination and reason to make the trip :-).

Paul

[Stephen Davis]

Tom,

You just made my day! I have been touting Sand Hollow to everyone who would listen. My parents have lived in St. George for about 10 years now and I make a point to play Sand Hollow just about every time I go down. I think the stretch from 11-15 is fantastic and would get a lot more press if it wasn't in Utah. So when you posted a few months back that you were going to make a trip to the state, I was hoping that you were going to take the time to play this course. I am interested to see what score you give it. Did you get the chance to check out the 9 hole links course? If so what did you think? To me it is one of the best deals I know of as it can usually be played for around $15.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Its probably anti Romney media bias.......(just kidding)

[Carl Nichols]

Sand Hollow is a good golf course in the summer when it is nice and green, but the course really shines in the winter months when it really firms up. 

What's the golfing season like in St. George's?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jeff Brauer,
I seem to be running into a lot of old guard industry types this year who make judgements based on websites. If you really want to know what is going on, I'd suggest less time on the computer and more time on the ground.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Says to pot to the kettle.

Its a  legit question that came up here and which I am asking.

You say Andy should get some credit.  I am just wondering what credit Andy is due on a John Fought job?  From whom?

Did he do the practice area, other nine, or just work under John as the project architect?

[Don_Mahaffey]

Jeff, if you are saying I spend too much time on the internet, guilty as charged. If you are saying I try to represent something I'm not on the internet, I don't think so.

As far as Andy and credit, I guess he deserves whatever credit the ASGCA gives to an associate who uses a course for admittance. You know more about that, but I find it odd that a past President wants to debate credit, when your system says he  deserves that credit.

What I like about Andy is he is not only talking about sustainability, he is actually driving a lot of the sustainability innovation in golf design and construction. I think he did some pretty cool stuff at Sand Hollow in that regard.

Anyhow, I take nothing away from John Fought and never meant to. All I said was I thought Andy was involved, not that he should receive full credit or more credit, as he knows more than anyone that it takes a team to build something good.

I think it's cool that TD is out finding golf courses to talk about and I hate that I have that I have somehow diverted a thread about a cool golf course.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,

I agree we don't need to divert the thread from golf, but I just didn't understand from the various web sites what Andy did on the project.  I don't recall what courses he used for ASGCA admittance credit, but there is a bit different than public credit on websites, etc.  But, I have no doubt after discussions I have had with others that Andy is a talented architect.

It also seems like TD is out on quite a fall golf tour, with Houston, Utah, and who knows where else. 

[Stephen Davis]

Sand Hollow is a good golf course in the summer when it is nice and green, but the course really shines in the winter months when it really firms up. 

What's the golfing season like in St. George's?

It is open year round, but peak season is October through May. There is a bit in December where it can get a little cold, but after May it starts to warm up. The shoulder seasons are great for golfing there. St. George is less than 2 hours from Vegas, so it has similar seasons, but its summer is slightly less hot than Vegas.

[Jason Topp]

David:

It is the Championship course I'm referring to.  The Links is a third nine that's out away from the red rocks.  I only saw it from the road, didn't have time to look around; it had lots of short grass and connected fairways from what I could see, but it's definitely not the main attraction there.

If I were choosing the best 18 on the property, I would go Links/Back 9.  The Links is a bit understated but such a nice contrast from typical desert golf that I would consider it a must for someone that is making a visit.

[Noel Freeman]

I got Sand Hollow on a spectacular day this past April.  I really liked the playing characteristics of the front 9 which obviously are not the holes people will remember.  The back 9 has some crazy looking holes given the wild contours but I had great fun playing them and enjoying the scenery.

I also played the Links 9 which is a great place to warm up for playing the main course and is unique to anything I've seen in the desert for its ethos.

[Neal_Meagher]

To Don and Jeff,

Having known Andy Staples since he began working at Graves & Pascuzzo as a design associate in 1997 I feel a little qualified to chime in here.

I left that firm in 2000 which was several years before Andy did so I can't remember exactly the details of how he came to be involved in Sand Hollow to begin with, but I am almost certain it was after he left Graves & Pascuzzo.  However, what I DO KNOW is that after he began his Golf Resources Group he was extremely involved in ABSOLUTELY EVERY ASPECT of the courses design and construction.  It was the client who brought in John Fought with whom Andy did work during the final phases of the design and during construction.  This was after Andy had spent several years doing all the up front work with the client including all initial design and even very detailed design work prior to Fought's involvement.  Not to take away from whatever John Fought brought to the project after he became involved, but make no mistake, Andy bought a house in St. George just so he could maximize his time there when away from his home in Phoenix.  Andy should get an enormous amount of the credit for the creation of this course.

[Tom_Doak]

Neal:

It's hard to know how to place a report like yours posted above.  I understand both sides of the debate, but if one of my associates [or ex-associates] had someone post that he deserved the lion's share of credit for any of our courses, I would be more than a little upset.

If Andy was so involved in every aspect, how can he not get more public credit than he's gotten?

[Neal_Meagher]

Tom,

I understand completely what you are saying, but I am clear in that I stated that John Fought was quite involved in this project.  The fact is that Andy was the architect working with the owner originally and that they chose to bring in another architect to work with Andy (or Andy to work with another architect) for reasons that I do not know.  As you know the owner can make their own decisions as to who did what as in the case of one of my other former co-workers, Mike Stark, who actually approached the tribe that owns the Rolling Hills Casino in Corning, CA, designed their course from the beginning through to the end, yet the "architect" they credit is John Daly.  He visited once during construction, after seeding.

But, please don't misunderstand me here.  Andy has nothing to do with me posting this, I simply wanted to point out that sometimes the line is difficult to assess as to who the named designer is/was and whether that crossed over into co-design or not.  From an owner's viewpoint a co-design isn't as sexy or as descriptive in nature as naming a sole designer.  I think that good work should not go unwarranted and I simply wanted to elucidate you and others as to how good a designer Andy is and that his work on this project goes far beyond that of a design associate.  As I understand it he was head of his own firm the entire time he worked on this project so design associate probably does not adequately describe what he did anyway.

I have always been careful in describing the work I did while with G & P as I was an actual design associate and everything I did under their banner was clearly their work.  That was a clear line.  One independent architect working with another independent architect is a little muddier.

I think it is fair to say that Sand Hollow is the better for the dual involvement of both men, both very knowledgeable and both very talented in their own rights.