[Mark Pearce]

Sean,

On my only visit to Pasatiempo one of my playing partners had a chip from just off the left of the green and, perhaps, a yard or two past the flag on an early par 3 (4 or 5, possibly?).  He played a wonderful shot which was virtually stationary a yard or two past the hole.  His next shot was an uphill chip from 30 yards short of the green.

I thought that was harsh.

[A.G._Crockett]

Sean,

On my only visit to Pasatiempo one of my playing partners had a chip from just off the left of the green and, perhaps, a yard or two past the flag on an early par 3 (4 or 5, possibly?).  He played a wonderful shot which was virtually stationary a yard or two past the hole.  His next shot was an uphill chip from 30 yards short of the green.

I thought that was harsh.

I would imagine that he thought it a bit harsh as well...

[Carl Nichols]

Tom, others who have played Crystal Downs-
If you get above the hole on 11, and putt to the front left of the green, how long a 2d putt are you likely to have left -- at least if the hole is cut in the bottom tier? If it's 30 feet or less, that seems eminently reasonable.

[Brian_Sleeman]

It is definitely in that range, Carl.  I'll add that in addition to it being difficult to summon the discipline to aim that far away from the hole on a putt like that, it's still no easy feat to get the ball to stop in that front-left corner even if you do manage to follow that plan. 

In my time at the Downs, there were several instances where I had to aim my putt well away from the hole in order to choose the best CHIP I might have on my next shot.  When the hole is cut on the front of #8, for example, and your ball is in the middle of the green or deeper, your best bet may be to putt toward the fringe off the front right-corner of the green.  It surely beats a 40 yard pitch from the deep swale you might otherwise find!

And to me, that was a tremendously fun and memorable part of the process of discovering all the intricacies and challenges of those greens.  There were some spots that were obvious in your first time or two where you knew better than to miss long (#1 and #11 come to mind), and there were many others where those difficulties were revealed only after several plays.  In the end, I putted off of nearly all of the greens at one time or another.  And I deserved every one of them.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Does the 11th green at Crystal Downs have the same contour as when it was designed?.... If so, what does the green run at now compared to in the 30's?.... Do you think it the architect's intent to leave the golfer with that type of putt?... Personally I think we should celebrate these type of idiosyncrasies in our older courses but I don't think we should confuse them with outstanding and deliberate design decisions (at least not always).... Is the 11th severely uphill by any chance?

[mike_malone]

Ally,
 I agree the classic courses were not designed for present day speeds. I think it is the original designer's revenge.

[Bart Bradley]

I am with Chip on this one.  If you can't hit the perfect putt and keep it ON the green, just goofy.  That doesn't mean I should be able to get it close, but I ought to be able to keep putting.

Bart

[JESII]

Sean,

On my only visit to Pasatiempo one of my playing partners had a chip from just off the left of the green and, perhaps, a yard or two past the flag on an early par 3 (4 or 5, possibly?).  He played a wonderful shot which was virtually stationary a yard or two past the hole.  His next shot was an uphill chip from 30 yards short of the green.

I thought that was harsh.

I would imagine that he thought it a bit harsh as well...

I didn't realize that was the goal...removing any chance of a harsh result...

[mike_malone]

 When you know you could putt the ball off the green it fires your imagination. Isn't that great architecture?

[Ken Fry]

I've told this story before but will post it here:

I had a group out to play Crystal Downs a few years ago.  It was a good fall day which means the greens are running lightning fast.

We got to the 11th hole and I hit a good shot to a back pin.  Yes, I was trying to leave the ball short knowing this green but it landed and finished about 6 feet above the hole.  The guys in the group were back slapping me congratulating me on a good shot.  I stopped them before leaving the tee and told them if my first putt didn't go in, I would be chipping back to the pin.  None of them believed it.

I played the putt toward the edge of the green (that's 15 feet left of the hole on a downhill 6 footer) hoping the slope would bring the ball back diagnolly so if it didn't catch the hole it would at least stay on the back plateau.  No dice.  It slowly crept by, caught the slope and rolled off the front of the green 35 feet away.

I know TD has a number of funny stories about members on that green.  You know what's in store from the tee.  Make a mistake and get above the hole, take your medicine and move on.

Ken

[Brent Hutto]

When you know you could putt the ball off the green it fires your imagination. Isn't that great architecture?

And as I've mentioned, when you know that being above the hole means putting off the green it makes you choose your target spot very carefully. Isn't that great architecture? If you aren't sure you can nail the distance perfectly you're best off choosing to play away from the hole.

[Jason Topp]

I prefer that one have a chance from above the hole.  Recovery play makes for the most interesting golf and having a chance makes for a much more interesting shot.  I have encountered very few situations where there is not some sort of chance from above the hole to stop it.

With any preference there are exceptions.

One rule for me, however, is that a putt from below the hole should not turn around and go backwards if it is hit at the correct speed.  Such circumsances are rare but they do happen.

[A.G._Crockett]

An essential qualifier here seems to be whether or not a well-struck approach could be played below the hole in the first place.  I have seen few (if any!) greens on which an approach could be played TO THE GREEN below the hole AND on which a putt from above the hole on the same line could go off the green.

Again, the vast majority of the situations I've seen in which a good putt could go off the green had much more to do with bad pin placements than good GCA.  Often, this happens of greens with a false front that leaves nowhere to play the ball below the hole.

It "fires my imagination" to have to play away from the hole, and it fires my imagination to play the ball out on the toe of my putter to try to control the speed, and it fires my imagination to know that if I don't make the putt that it will go well past the hole and leave me much, much more than a tap-in or even a knee knocker.  These situations strike me as good, and maybe great, GCA.

It doesn't really fire my imagination to stand over a putt knowing that if it doesn't go in I'll be chipping back from off the green.  I don't think it fired Payne Stewart's imagination at Olympic, either.  I think it fired his temper, and I think he was 100% correct and vindicated later.

[JESII]

AG,

At Huntingdon Vally (just outside of Philadelphia) there are several holes which give a chance to hit the approach below the hole that also cary real risk of degreening if past the hole. They're mostly front pins and could be called borderline if speeds are up, but they make those holes on that day very interesting, challenging and fun. The consequences of degreening vary from just a putt back from the fringe to one or two 40 yard pitch shots.

I understand that this pisses players off, but so does hitting a drive down the fairway and watching it bounce and bounce only to find a bunker.

That's golf to me.

[Jud_T]

It seems to me that hard and fast rules aren't for artists, but rather for engineers.  Mind you I have seen holes that turned into silly golf.  There used to be a pin placement on a par 3 on the front at Thunderhawk when they first opened where you simply went back and forth over a slope until you holed it or picked up.  That was bad GCA and had nothing to do with de-greening. (I believe they've since softened the green).  If the local knowledge play is to lay up short of the green, chip on and make a putt then so be it.  A stroke is a stroke.  I don't understand why a stroke with a putter is more important than one from off the green.  Sounds like many here are happy to have a 20 foot comeback putt but not a 20 foot comeback chip.  Best to take each case on it's own merits and not make blanket statements, particularly when it comes to something as unique as golf courses and mother nature...

[Dan Boerger]

Interesting thread. I used to play St. Davids in Wayne, PA a fair amount and the 7th hole was notorious for this. Knowing such, I (and many others) would often purposely bail on our approach shot to just in front. Got in my head plenty, but this was 1 hole of 18, and I honestly thought it added to the overall round.

Never to be outdone locally, the East Course at Merion boasts the more severe 12th green where a competitor didn't just putt it off the green, but putted it out of bounds. Interestingly, as I understand it, he was putting it UP a severe slope and wanted to make sure it got to the hole, which it briefly did, before then going through light rough and onto Ardmore Avenue.

The 12th, of course, now made less severe.

[Brent Hutto]

Just to be clear about my own attitude, I'm not at all trying to defend an "infinite putting" deal where a chip or putt from below the hole will roll 20, 30, 40 yards back down the fairway. To my mind there has to be some spot that you can either hit with an approach shot or chip up to that allows a putt to be lagged close without necessarily going in. Even if that certain position is very, very hard to obtain.

There's a Par 3 green at my club with both a steeply sloped front half of the green as well as a frankly false front comprising the last 10 feet or so of that front half. When its high summer and the greens have been cut and rolled for a tournament many normal hole locations become off limits because you could hand-place a ball right on the lip of the hole and it would still roll off the green and many yards back down the hill.

In normal weekly play, the danger is not the slope right at the hole but rather the much steeper slope that connects the "upper tier" to the "lower tier" of the green. It is that steep rise cutting across the middle of the green that will propel a ball into oblivion (unless it happens to hit the hole dead center). So when the greens are running fast, if you hit your approach onto that top tier you will be off the green after putting. '

That same steep ridge offers a backstop to approach shots landing on the front half of the green. In fact, if you land on the front right corner of the green approximately hole high the ball will funnel over the hole and (usually) stop somewhere within eight feet or so of the hole. It's a very cool green IMO and I love playing that backstop shot.

Of course the same green can have the hole cut up on the stop shelf and it's quite easy to hit your ball up there and just have a routine two-putt. It's the front location that's really fun, assuming the grounds crew doesn't mistakenly put the hole too close to the false front. But make no mistake, that fun hole location will bite you squarely on the arse if you are so foolish as to over-club when the pin's on the front. You can't have the cool backstop thing without also having the run-off-the-green thing, see?

[Mark McKeever]

Never to be outdone locally, the East Course at Merion boasts the more severe 12th green where a competitor didn't just putt it off the green, but putted it out of bounds. Interestingly, as I understand it, he was putting it UP a severe slope and wanted to make sure it got to the hole, which it briefly did, before then going through light rough and onto Ardmore Avenue.

The 12th, of course, now made less severe.

I will never forget when my buddy hit a bunker shot from the front bunker on 12 a little lean.  He carried the ball to the back fringe (flag was front right) and it had enough spin that the last revolution pulled it onto the green.  About 30 seconds later he had a tap in for par.

Mark

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