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Patrick_Mucci

they did a great job.

The hole is really looking terrific.

The fronting, deep trench bunker is a ferocious hazard and in total harmony with many of the more punitive bunkers at GCGC,
and, the rear, semi-circular bunkers look fabulous as well, with the backslope of the green/surrounds feeding into them.

The green looks to be much larger than its predecessor, probably around 8,000 sq/ft and the mounds are internal, within
the putting surface.

While the mounds aren't as pronounced as the originals, you can only construct that which you can maintain/mow, and in
that regard they're terrific.  At today's speeds, and today the greens were probably 11+, you couldn't have steep mounds.

With some of the backround trees that have been removed, the green appears to sit above grade, providing the golfer a rather
intimidating view from the tee, which has been lengthened.  The hole probably plays about 210 from the back of the tee to the center of the green and probably about 225 to the back of the green.  For those prefering not to play the back tees, green and black, the white tee is about 140, making it manageable for the higher handicap player.

Concave bunkers, which appear throughout the golfcourse, starting on the first hole, have also been added, and there will be fairway short of the fronting deep bunker.

When the hole opens next spring, and I certainly hope that Mother Nature is kind to the club this fall, winter and spring, I think those playing the hole for the first time, will be shocked, in a positive sense, by the transformation.  I think that the contestants in the Travis Tournament will be blown away.  I also think that the added length will offer plenty of challenge to the better player.
No more six irons into the green.  One of the prevailing winds should also challenge the golfer.

It's a really, really neat hole, a true "Garden City" hole that will be far more appealing than it's predecesor,

Interestingly enough, the 3rd hole, many years ago, had the mounds flanking the left side of the greens, within the putting surface.
Since the 3rd hole is one of the original holes, that would leave me to believe that Emmett was the creator of or genesis for the mounds within the original 12th green.

I'm really impressed by the attempt to replicate the original 12th hole, I think it's going to be a terrific hole for every level of golfer.

But, wait, there's more good news.

One of my pet peeves, at GCGC and elsewhere, was that the bunkers were allowed to be buffered by strips of "protective" rough, stopping balls from entering the bunkers.
Even at Garden City, the bunkers were allowed to become "offset" from the fairway/green.

Soon, like Mountain Ridge, the bunkers will be returned, functionallyl, to play, by having the buffers of rough removed.

No where is this more noticeable than on # 13 where fairway and greenside bunkers have significant buffers of rough protecting them.

On my next visit, I'll try to take some photos and then forward them to Bill Brightly for posting.
While photos tend to lose depth and elevation, they should give you a good indication of the green/surrounds and the work in progress.

Now, if they'd just shift the second half of the 7th fairway and restore the old right side trench bunker. ;D

P.S.

I believe that the dramatic and stunning result at # 12 will lead other clubs to embark upon restorations of some of their lost holes.

P.S.S

Tom Doak,

Time to edit "The Confidential Guide"

"The 18 Greatest Holes in golf that no longer exist" ;D
« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 09:52:14 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2012, 09:59:05 PM »
Patrick,

Like many of your threads, this one too is worthless without pictures.   ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #2 on: October 14, 2012, 10:05:30 PM »


Ben,

Some participants have the mental ability to visualize descriptions, others like yourself don't and need pictures  ;D

I'm hoping to take some pictures and have them posted sometime later this week.

The site looked like swirl of activity today with construction equipment going back and forth constantly, bringing in sand,  with backhoes digging and men working all over, like busy beavers.

I don't know if photos of the previous green were posted, I think some were, but, the comparison of the pre and post green will be startling

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2012, 10:10:29 PM »
Fantastic Pat.  I've been following with interest through the grapevine.  Though not the same, I made sure to heavily study the 4th at St. George's when I was out in June to get a decent visual.  Do you expect the mounds' tight mowing to stay around or will native/rough be introduced to them?

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2012, 10:12:06 PM »
Pat-

I was so, so hoping to see the visual evidence of Tom & team doing their job....  

You have to post pictures, good or bad...not just green ink :-)!

Chip

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2012, 11:05:31 PM »

Fantastic Pat.  I've been following with interest through the grapevine.  

Though not the same, I made sure to heavily study the 4th at St. George's when I was out in June to get a decent visual.

That's one great green and surrounds, most unusual and most enjoyable.
 

Do you expect the mounds' tight mowing to stay around or will native/rough be introduced to them?

The mounds are within the putting surface and will be maintained as putting surface.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2012, 11:06:41 PM »
Pat-

I was so, so hoping to see the visual evidence of Tom & team doing their job....  

You have to post pictures, good or bad...not just green ink :-)!

I'm not a good photographer, but, I'll try to do my best.

It's really an impressive sight, especially after having looked at the previous eyesore for the last 14 years.


Chip

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2012, 11:06:47 PM »
Pat-

I was so, so hoping to see the visual evidence of Tom & team doing their job....  

You have to post pictures, good or bad...not just green ink :-)!

Chip

Yeah, c'mon Pat, learn an exciting new skill.

P.S. I am happy for you.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2012, 07:35:44 AM »
Patrick:

I'm glad you like the green.

Don't forget to help defend it next summer when the controversy starts anew!

Some visitors may be disappointed to find that we didn't build the mounds quite as high or as sharp as what they see in the old pictures.  However, we were obliged to make it maintainable for the modern era.  In fact, if it wasn't for the superintendent Dave Pughe believing that he could maintain the green, we would never have received the board's go-ahead to build it, so we had to work closely with Dave to build a green that could be mowed and sprayed and top-dressed and aerified.

Also, for those who will inevitably ask, the green was constructed to USGA specs, although we used a bit less greens mix on the mounds per their new recommendations.  I would like to say it's the most complicated USGA green anyone has ever built, but I haven't seen them all.  Hats off to Jim for getting it done.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2012, 07:43:39 AM »
Congratulations to all involved. The previous version was certainly a bland anomaly on an otherwise interesting course. It is good that the realities of modern green maintenance were taken into account so the intent of the green contours could be achieved. It will interesting to hear what the membership response is over time.
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2012, 08:54:22 AM »
Patrick:

I'm glad you like the green.

Tom, it's an exponentially better green than it's predecessor


Don't forget to help defend it next summer when the controversy starts anew!

I think there will be a few critics, but if you're a believer in the genius of what Emmett and Travis created at Garden City, you have to embrace the new green/hole.
If you're a believer in what RTJ crafted, you probably shouldn't be a member ;D.

I think that's the response that should be presented to those who criticize the new green, favoring the old green.
And, you can count on my not just defending the new hole but extolling it's virtues.

I think it's such an incredible improvement, not just in the features of the hole, but in the context of the overall architectural continuity of the golf course.

Previously, there was a huge disconnect when you left the 11th green and stepped up on the 12th tee, and again, when you left the 12th green and stepped up onto the 13th tee.  Playing # 12 was as if you entered an architectural time warp, now the continuity of the architectural integrity of what Emmett and Travis created has been restored


Some visitors may be disappointed to find that we didn't build the mounds quite as high or as sharp as what they see in the old pictures. 

I don't know that most visitors are that familiar with the original hole.
Those that are and those that become familiar with the original green should easily understand that green speeds and green heights are different today than they were 100+ years ago.


However, we were obliged to make it maintainable for the modern era.  In fact, if it wasn't for the superintendent Dave Pughe believing that he could maintain the green, we would never have received the board's go-ahead to build it, so we had to work closely with Dave to build a green that could be mowed and sprayed and top-dressed and aerified.

Also, for those who will inevitably ask, the green was constructed to USGA specs, although we used a bit less greens mix on the mounds per their new recommendations.  I would like to say it's the most complicated USGA green anyone has ever built, but I haven't seen them all. 

That's a departure from the last green reconstruction at GCGC, what were the pros and cons in USGA versus non-USGA, and what was/were the deciding factors in going to USGA ?

And, what's your estimate on how long it will take before it plays like all of the other greens ?


Hats off to Jim for getting it done.

Agreed


Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2012, 09:38:20 AM »
For those of us that haven't been there, when did RTJ change the old hole? Also, what had the original hole morphed into by the time RTJ changed it?

Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2012, 12:43:21 PM »
Patrick,
Like many of your threads, this one too is worthless without pictures.   ;D
We do need some pics.  99.99999% of us will never get an invite to GCGC.
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 01:08:48 PM »
There was a thread with pix of this green back in 2010. I did a google search and it took me to the GCA thread. I don't know how to paste links. :P
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 01:11:52 PM »

For those of us that haven't been there, when did RTJ change the old hole?

Mid 60's


 Also, what had the original hole morphed into by the time RTJ changed it?

Like other holes it hadn't morphed


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2012, 01:19:01 PM »
Patrick,
Like many of your threads, this one too is worthless without pictures.   ;D
We do need some pics.  99.99999% of us will never get an invite to GCGC.

Pictures of the original hole have been posted dozens of times.

Photos of the current hole have been posted as Ed Getka mentioned,

Ed,

All you have to do is locate the reply where the photo is displayed, hit the quote prompt, and copy the alpha-numeric photo bracket (control C), then access this thread and paste (control V) it.      Hope that helps


ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2012, 01:38:22 PM »
img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3400/3495562588_aec8b7117e_o.jpg[/img  Clearly I didn't something right. ???
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2012, 01:41:19 PM »
delete
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2012, 01:45:06 PM »
The 12th at Garden City;




Mike, thanks for the photos.
The bunkering is great and the unique mounds ... well, very unique.

It took a while, but I finally got it.

« Last Edit: October 15, 2012, 01:48:59 PM by ed_getka »
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2012, 02:35:21 PM »
Ed,

If you can find and post pictures of the current green that would help.

The new green under construction has the back bunkers located closer to the putting surface.

I like this because today's golfers hit less club with higher trajectories.

While not an exact replica, I'd call the green and surrounds under construction a restoration faithful to the architectural principles of the original

Jed Peters

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #20 on: October 15, 2012, 03:07:06 PM »
Pat:

I look forward to hearing about the new hole and how it plays. I remember in our visit I think I flared a 3 hybrid out right and chipped on...don't really remember the hole, as I think you were in the middle of commentary about how much you hate it combined with the story of your father's exploits on and off the course.  ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #21 on: October 15, 2012, 08:36:58 PM »
Pat:

I look forward to hearing about the new hole and how it plays. I remember in our visit I think I flared a 3 hybrid out right and chipped on...don't really remember the hole, as I think you were in the middle of commentary about how much you hate it combined with the story of your father's exploits on and off the course.  ;)

Jed,

You'll have to come and play it along with your friends from PR when you visit next year.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2012, 11:41:38 AM »
Patrick,
Like many of your threads, this one too is worthless without pictures.   ;D
We do need some pics.  99.99999% of us will never get an invite to GCGC.

Carl,

They should be up today.



John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2012, 11:46:03 AM »
Patrick asked me to post these photos.  I suspect it looks almost ready to play by now.
























































Angela Moser

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tom Doak and Jim Urbina didn't do a good job on the 12th hole at GCGC,
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2012, 07:26:35 PM »
great job, that looks pretty awesome. thx for posting the pics... can't wait for the next possibility to walk the course and study the new hole, which might take a bit...

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