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Mark Saltzman

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Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« on: October 12, 2012, 09:06:09 PM »
Sleepy Hollow Country Club is a course that has undergone many changes over its 101 years.  Names like Rockefeller and Vanderbilt were associated with its ownership and many architects have had their hand in what is on the ground today.  

My understanding is that the original course was designed by CB Macdonald.  Within a couple of decades of the course's opening, A.W. Tillinghast expanded the layout to 27 holes.  I recall reading/hearing somewhere that 1 and 18 on the current course were added by yet another architect, though I could be wrong.

Gil Hanse and George Bahto have worked with Sleepy Hollow for the past several years to restore the course to its CB Macdonald heritage.  In that vein, the Tillinghast holes have been modified to fit CBM's style, though I believe the greens are untouched.  Several of CBM's original holes remain in original form on the 9-hole short course.

Despite Hanse/Bahto's efforts, there is no doubt that the Tillinghast holes look and feel different than the Macdonald holes.  While the Macdonald holes have a wider expanse and rely more heavily on strategic (and deep) bunkering to create interest, the Tillinghast holes are carved out of the land and rely on contoured greens and movement in the fairways.

The golf course is most well-known for its iconic 16th hole, the Short, with the Hudson River as a backdrop.  But the golf course is much more than a 'one-trick pony'.  The set of par-3s is very strong.  Though the short will receive most of the discussion, the downhill reverse-redan 7th with its extremely sloped kicker, and the demanding eden 3rd complete with strath bunker and severe tilt are both worthy of discussion and study.








All yardages will be from the back (blue) tees (74.2/137; 6,880 Yards, Par-70).

The first is a gentle opener, playing downhill and a little over 400 yards.  A single bunker guards the ideal line to this well-contoured green.  A line of trees separates the first and eighteenth holes on the right; though safety issues may preclude their removal, it is a change I would love to see.  The 1st green as seen from the right:




The second hole is spectacular, and the very recent restoration of the top-shot bunkers has only added to the visual appeal.  Though the hole is short on the scorecard (372 from the back tees, 321 yards from the member tees), it's extremely uphill nature, severely tilted green and deep green side bunkers make this hole far from a pushover.






The eden 3rd plays near 170 yards.  The hole plays subtly uphill, and my caddy told me that many seemingly well-struck shots will find the strath pot bunker short of the green.  Still, this miss is not terrible, as one plays into the severe back-to-front tilt from there.




The golfer must traverse a bridge that looks like it has been in place for 100 years to reach the third green.  He'll be 'across the road' until he crosses the bridge again to reach the 16th green.




There are no bad holes on the golf course, though I would argue that the 4th is one of three holes that is forgettable (though demanding).  The tee shot is a blind one played over a hill with an approach to a (now) large and undulating green.  The amount of green recapture here is unbelievable.  The 4th green site as seen from the 14th fairway:




The 5th is a phenomenal golf hole and one that really should receive more recognition.  The tee shot is played over a diagonal ridge that requires a strike of some 200 yards to crest at its nearest point:




Clearing the hill is one of those wow moments in golf.  Unbelievable scale, perfect mowing lines, and one heck of a view!




From the fairway, the 5th green becomes one of the green skyline greens in golf.  The difficulty in judging distance can wreak havoc on the golfer as a false-front awaits short and a ridge running across the green's centre will make a long approach a near impossible two-putt.




The view from the back of the 5th green:




The 6th is something of an awkward par-5.  At only 470 yards from the back tees the hole is a pushover for the longest hitters.  The main demand of the tee shot is a carry of 235 yards, uphill, to reach an upper portion of fairway.  Those that cannot make the carry are forced to hit a 200 yard shot to a lower fairway, leaving a blind second.




Aside from the two at National, this is the most cleverly placed principal's nose bunker I've seen, sitting in the centre of the fairway 100 yards of the green.  Certainly a bunker that will impact decision-making.




The 215 yard redan 7th is exceptionally well-done, solving the oft cited problem of downhill redans that the kicker will not function properly by using a more severe kicker.  The hole can stretch back from the tee and played 235 yards to the pin pictured.






The 8th returns us to the parkland feel and the Tillinghast holes.  Though I played the course after two-days of rain, the Macdonald holes played fairly firm.  The Tillinghast holes from 8-12, however, played noticeably softer.  Perhaps Macdonald was onto something when he chose to route his course away from the stream that runs through this stretch?

Though the 8th has a wide playing corridor, after the vast expanse of holes 2-7, one cannot help but feel constrained on this tee shot.  Few can opt to hit less than driver as the hole plays over 460 yards, and a landform in the right-centre of the fairway lurks and may kick seemingly well-placed tee shots towards the rough.




The 9th is a very good golf hole.  A diagonal ridge runs across the fairway's centre.  Successfully challenge the landform on the shortest line and the golfer will have a clear look at the green but from a difficult angle.




The green is one of the two best on the course (the other is also a Tilley green).  Unlike the contours on the 4th or 5th, which feel wholly manufactured, the 9th green drapes perfectly over the land.


« Last Edit: October 14, 2012, 06:16:55 PM by Mark Saltzman »

Frank M

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted New
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 09:32:44 PM »
Sleepy Hollow is amazing.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2024, 09:29:58 PM by Frank M »

Gary Slatter

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 10:35:14 PM »
great pictures, it's on my list!    It's the favourite course of Bill Murray and George Peper (seem to recall both are members).
Gary Slatter
gary.slatter@raffles.com

Adam Clayman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 10:53:27 PM »
The 2nd is one of my all time favorites. The kick plate/transition to 3rd tee is so cool. Words won't do it justice.

The work the committee has done to help open up the views and uncover the features is a testament to their understanding of the finer points.

There's a very famous Ran quote, upon seeing the par 3 hole over the water. But no need to bog down your pictorial with negative thoughts.

Thanks.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Matthew MacKay

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 06:50:57 AM »
Love the scale of Sleepy Hollow, even the Tillie holes...I found the playing corridors at 8 + 9 more than sufficient.

I'll be interested to see your take on the par 5 Hanse created out of the first half of a Tillie par 4.

Mike Sweeney

Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 07:27:59 AM »

Despite Hanse/Bahto's efforts, there is no doubt that the Tillinghast holes look and feel different than the Macdonald holes.  While the Macdonald holes have a wider expanse and rely more heavily on strategic (and deep) bunkering to create interest, the Tillinghast holes are carved out of the land and rely on contoured greens and movement in the fairways.


Fantastic observation. It is #1 in Westchester County for me. Thanks for the tour.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 10:10:38 AM »

Clearing the hill is one of those wow moments in golf.  Unbelievable scale, perfect mowing lines, and one heck of a view!




This photo is the truth.  It's what golf is all about.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 01:13:41 PM »
The before and after comparison of the 8th hole itself is worthy of its own thread as a lesson in reclaiming playing corridors.  Prior to the recent work, the hole demanded a shot to the left side of the fairway.  Anything right of middle was blocked out by the invasive tree growth on that side.

Interesting comments on the Mac/Tillie comparison.  The Mac holes definitely have a constructed feel.  I'm not sure if I'd say the Tillie holes were "carved out of" as much as "laid out on" the land.

Sleepy Hollow is the site of my one and only "victory" in a golf event - low summer associate at a 1998 law firm summer outing.  It was also the first Mac/Raynor I played, and I owe a good deal of my interest in GCA to the experience.  During the afternoon round on a wide-open course that day, I think my group hit no less than 30 shots into the 15th green.

Mr. Mucci started a thread on the course a short while back which is worthy of being linked to here: 

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,53194.0.html

I've copied below my relevant thoughts from that thread:

"Here's my thought on the walk:  the vistas are the payoff.

I think the routing at Sleepy Hollow is superb and in some ways reminds me of Bandon Trails (or does Bandon Trails remind me of Sleepy Hollow?).

You start with the get away holes, in this case a downhill 4, an uphill 4 and a 3 across a gorge.  The climb up the second lets you know you're in for something special, especially if you take a peak over your shoulder and catch a bit of the expanse of river behind you.  When you climb up the hill from the 3rd green into the central playing field, you almost feel like you've ascended into a high alpine meadow.  You get to play four holes here (4, 5, 6 and 7) and get a peak at some of the joys to come (13, 14 and 15).  The exploration continues, as you then play a small loop away from the halfway (thirdway?) shack, only to return after 12.  After the alpine meadow, the stroll through the high forest of the loop (replete with a pond that must have been filled by glacial runoff) provides the "escape" feeling, the sense of having left the world behind.

Having had a preview of almost all of the closing stretch (with the exception of the wonder of standing on the 16th tee and green), you pretty much know what's in store as you return to the heart of the course.  There are a ton of fun shots to look forward to coming home, including the punchbowl green approach, the short and the downhill drive on 17.  To close things out, you're left with the task of besting the 18th, a wonderful uphill closing hole that places demands on every shot.

When you look back on the round, you're left with memories of the principal's nose, balls careening off the bank at the reverse redan, tee shots searching for the proper side of a fairway or climbing the last few yards of a hill to be breached and approaches skirting that last hurdle before trundling onto a green.  There are great bunkers, but the course is far from being a sandbox.  There's movement in the greens.  There's elevation and there are relatively flat holes.  There's something to examine and learn on every hole, if not every shot.  Its a great course, and while the walk may be demanding in places (and downright fun in others), the payoffs are worth every ounce of energy expended on the journey."
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 05:46:01 PM »

Interesting comments on the Mac/Tillie comparison.  The Mac holes definitely have a constructed feel.  I'm not sure if I'd say the Tillie holes were "carved out of" as much as "laid out on" the land.



Sven, YES, Exactly! That is a much better way to put it.  Thanks.

Edit: I read the rest of your post now.  All really good stuff.  Couldn't (and didn't) have said it better myself.

Charlie_Bell

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 07:22:19 PM »
Mark,

Thanks for taking the gorgeous shots -- nice to have the low-angle light for a course with such contours.

Sven,

Thanks again for your reprinted description.  Jim Kennedy accused me of sucking up to you when I commented on the original, so I shudder to think what he'll say this time. 

I'm officially grateful to Mark for posting photo tours of my two favorite courses on my lifetime list, Sleepy Hollow and Cabot Links.   When I played SH, it had a dream-like quality that I'll attribute to the Washington Irving-Rip Van Winkle connection -- timeless or time-warpy.   Dream also comes to mind when I think of my round at Cabot, but in this case it refers to my awareness that the course was the fulfillment of the Ben/Rob/Mike dream of carving a special golf course out of a spectacular piece of land.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - Front 9 Posted
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2012, 06:16:43 PM »
The 10th hole, a 170 yard downhill par-3, will be singled out by many as it feels out of character with the rest of the course and is an altogether uninteresting hole.  Still, it is a way to get from one side of the lake to the other and in no way is offensive.  A connector hole.




The 11th returns the golfer to the trend of difficult Tilley par-4s with great greens.  A new back tee at 433 yards has added 60+ yards to the hole, and though the wild green and deep greenside bunkering always ensured this hole would be no pushover, the hole's teeth have been restored.  A bold tee shot down the right should result in a shorter approach to the green,




Though a narrow open green-front and a steep false-front mean that angle is of little importance.




The green's contours form something of a punchbowl as the left, rear and right edges of the green will collect shots towards its centre.  An overall back-to-front tilt is noticeable.




Missing left or long is not good.




The 12th hole is the most changed by Hanse and Bahto, converting it from a straightaway par-4 to a snaking, mid-length par-5 with a double-plateau green.  The change not only alleviated the monotony (so some say) of so many par-4 holes, but it also shortened the transition to the 13th tee by some 150 yards.








The 13th, a 394 yard par-4, returns the golfer to the Macdonald holes, and it's a really good one.  The DZ is blind from the tee but the green is readily in view.  Challenging a series of fairway bunkers down the left leaves a much simpler angle of approach into a green protected short-right by one of the deepest bunkers on the golf course.




Routed alongside and in the opposite direction to the 14th, the two prevailing winds ensure that one of these two holes will play quite long (usually it is the 14th).  A cross-bunker juts into the fairway 270 yards from the back tee, narrowing the fairway by 2/3.  My playing partner suggested that this was excessive, as nearly all golfers able to reach the bunker will simply lay up to it.




There is no doubt that the golfer has a preferred view if he successfully challenges the cross-bunker, but the preferred angle is from the left, short of the bunker.  No matter the angle, a precise approach is required as this as a very narrow green.




The 15th once played as a sub-500 yard par-5, but has since been modified to a soul-taking, into-the-wind and uphill 440 yard par-4.




Much like the punchbowls at National and Fishers Island, the approach to the green is completely blind.






The Short has been restored to its former glory.  The hole plays only 155 yards down the hill, and like the Short at Yale, is encircled by bunkers.




Unlike the other Short templates I've seen, this one does not feature a prominent 'thumbprint' in the green.  The green is probably most comparable to the Short at National, with its wild and random contours contours. 






The 17th hole at 446 yards, though expansive and difficult and with a great view, is not an overly interesting golf hole.




A back tee has been added to the 18th at 426 yards.  The hole plays alongside the 1st and even more than that hole would benefit from a wider playing corridor -- I am not convinced that the current fairway width melds well with the fairway contouring and firm conditions.




My playing partner told me this bunker has been nicknamed Bahto's Bunker.  I'm not sure why, but I know it's a bad place to be.


JLahrman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2012, 01:56:08 PM »
Great pics, let's keep this on the front page for awhile.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2012, 02:21:07 PM »
Great pics, let's keep this on the front page for awhile.

Agreed.  The tee box on the Short must be one of the top 20(?) spots on a golf course in the world.

Mark Woodger

Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2012, 03:09:12 PM »
I had the pleasure of playing Sleep Hollow this year. It is a course that you would never tire of playing and that to me is a key criteria of a golf course and its quality. It was in wonderful condition, the par 3s were a real test and the par 5s are terrific 3 shotters for me. It is a fantastic course and a lovely club from my brief experience, if i could join i would.


These pictures are great and really capture the features of the course.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2012, 03:39:47 PM »
What does everyone think of the tee shot at the 6th? Awkward? Interesting?

I think it works for those that can make the carry, but for those unable to carry their tee ball 235 yards, uphill, does it work?

Chris Buie

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2012, 03:51:36 PM »
Excellent work Mark. What a fantastic looking place.

Mark Saltzman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2012, 09:11:29 PM »
What does everyone think of the tee shot at the 6th? Awkward? Interesting?

I think it works for those that can make the carry, but for those unable to carry their tee ball 235 yards, uphill, does it work?

Anyone?

jeffwarne

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2012, 09:14:57 PM »
What does everyone think of the tee shot at the 6th? Awkward? Interesting?

I think it works for those that can make the carry, but for those unable to carry their tee ball 235 yards, uphill, does it work?

Anyone?

It's got a great green so it can't be mediocre ;)
It's both awkward and interesting, I don't know how far back the tees are now but the bigger problem when I worked there was not going THRU the fairway-had to hit a cut or a 3 wood
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Andy Troeger

Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2012, 11:15:34 PM »
Mark,
I love the golf course, but I think #6 was jammed into a corner a bit and the hole just plays oddly for those that cannot make the carry. The fellow I played with had to hit it to the lower "fairway," then loft something up into the 2nd fairway, although I believe he still made a fairly routine par. Both Sleepy Hollow and The Creek (#18) had one par five that I wasn't sold on with just one play, although I think this one should be a good birdie opportunity for those that can find the fairway. Its perhaps both interesting and a bit awkward.

corey miller

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2012, 11:16:20 AM »
I am very interested in hearing the observations on #6.  

I don't think the tee was moved back much at all, perhaps 5-10 yards.  The new tee is lower.

For a long player, going through the fairway is still a concern as there is a sharp fall-off, essentially down a cliff.

I very rarely make the top fairway, it is wind and tee placement dependent.  However, I much prefer attempting this shot and playing from the rough with perhaps a side-hill lie than laying-up and playing the second shot from the lower fairway.

The land-form is what it is and certainly nobody would suggest rock blasting so....What makes the hole better?  Where should the tee be placed?  Aren't we just making a determination here of who should and who shouldn't be able to hit shot 2 from the upper fairway?  

Perhaps it is not ideal but would anyone be bothered by a line of bunkers (hells half acre)240-270 (playable distance due to rise)on the first shot of a par 5?  
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 02:19:20 PM by corey miller »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2012, 12:41:52 PM »
To me the question on #6 is if its a carry that asks too much from the player even if they are playing the appropriate tees for their abilities.

I'd be interested in knowing what the carry is from the different standard teeing areas, and how they compare to the overall yardage for the course played from those tees.

At only 470 for a par 5, the hole should not be out of reach in 3 for those that have to lay up, and the principal's nose is very much a factor if that's the strategy employed.  If anything, I'd almost like to see the hole lengthened so that the carry becomes more of a factor for those playing the back tees.  Unfortunately there's not much room to go back on the current line.  But one wonders how the hole would play if you were to tee off near the current 4th tee and play the hole at a longer distance with less of a dogleg.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

corey miller

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #21 on: October 19, 2012, 10:43:16 AM »
Sleepy Hollow has four sets of tees (ladies,senior,member,champ).  I suspect the only people who have trouble with the carry are those that play from the "member" tee.  215 yards playing 235?

it is not as if there is a hazard/lost ball situation on the hill if one does not make the carry and the hole is still reachable in regulation with a lay-up first shot.

Going backward with the tee box on the same line would require loads of fill and would look unnatural and at the end of the day, is the hole better if everyone has to lay up?  

Any other direction on the tee leads to problems with play of the previous hole.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 02:20:00 PM by corey miller »

Andy Troeger

Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2012, 10:52:07 AM »
Corey,
I wouldn't necessarily change anything. Heck, I snapped my second and took a 7 from the top fairway and lost the hole while the other guy made a par from down below. Its a hole that rewards the golfer that can hit a good (and long enough) drive. I wouldn't want to see a ton of copies, but it fits the land that was given and is a reasonable way to get from #5 to #7. Its not an easy shot to get it up to that top fairway with a lot of things that can go wrong.

SPDB

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2012, 11:24:03 AM »
I think cutting back trees on the right to open up more of the direct/shorter line to the upper fairway. Even though they've opened things up on the left side of the upper fairway, things still seem claustrophobic on the right side.

Adam Clayman

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Re: Sleepy Hollow Country Club - A Photo Tour - All 18 Posted
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2012, 12:03:27 PM »
Corey, Changing the 6th tee shot's look, and playability, would seem to me like over the top accessorizing.  The land and curve to the hole, should let the golfer know, and feel,  they're about to continue on their journey. At this point, they can't see what's beyond the curve. They have to look inside themselves, to determine how to tack.

Dictating any one path, with the use of a hell's half acre, or other hazard, would greatly minimize the freedom and temptation for the golfer to be heroic.

If there was no rough up the hill, to the left, and conditions were firm, what would happen to one's ball? Would it roll into nether regions farther left? Roll back down the hill, to the right? Or would that depend on where the ball landed? If the latter, isn't that better fundamentally, due to a random outcome? Would that be the ideal, and more than likely, the mindset CBM was coming from?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

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