What are the great golf holes that don't have a penal hazard?

[David_Elvins]

Simple question:

What are the great golf holes that don't have a penal 'hazard'? 

[Alex Miller]

Since it's really not the main hazard of the hole, does 18 at TOC count? 14 ANGC?

[Mark Pearce]

Foxy.

[Ally Mcintosh]

14 at County Louth

[Sean_A]

I spose if penal hazard means water or bunkers (not sure), Foxy is hard to beat, but there are many goodun's.

Ciao

[Ivan Morris]

6th at Ballybunion Old?

[Ben Jarvis]

The 6th at Deal is the best par 4 I can think of. Does the par 3 7th at Barnbougle have any bunkers?

Very penal bunker the left side, Brian.

I'll second the 14th at Royal Dornoch (Foxy).

[Leo Barber]

17 Paraparaumu Beach

[BCrosby]

In what ways is a "penal hazard" different from a "hazard"?

[Ally Mcintosh]

In what ways is a "penal hazard" different from a "hazard"?

A penal hazard is one that makes a difference. To your thinking and the resultant scoring potential should you encounter it.

Therefore a fairway bunker that you can hit 3-wood from to reach that par-5 in two is not a penal hazard. So I'm guessing you can include holes like these if you know any that are great. Presumably the thinking behind the original post being that many great holes need severe hazards to make them great.

[Niall C]

Foxy.

Mark

Granted, there are no bunkers or water hazards on Foxy but I would question whether its a great hole. A better example of that type of hole is one we both like a great deal, and thats the 13th at Silloth. Come to think of it, the 4th and 7th are also great holes at Silloth without any conventional hazards.

Niall

[Mark Pearce]

Niall,

I strongly believe Foxy is a great hole.  The three you name at Silloth are all really good examples too, though and each of a very different nature.  Of course 13 drops out if you consider the heather on that bank to be a penal hazard and I suspect many BUDAites would!

[Adam Clayman]

Not such a simple question without defining penal hazard.

If Ally is right, and  

 

Presumably the thinking behind the original post being that many great holes need severe hazards to make them great.

subtlety would be lost.

10th at The Riv.

[BCrosby]

In what ways is a "penal hazard" different from a "hazard"?

A penal hazard is one that makes a difference. To your thinking and the resultant scoring potential should you encounter it.

Therefore a fairway bunker that you can hit 3-wood from to reach that par-5 in two is not a penal hazard. So I'm guessing you can include holes like these if you know any that are great. Presumably the thinking behind the original post being that many great holes need severe hazards to make them great.

Using Ally's definition, there are any number of such holes. Working from two courses we all know well:

ANGC - 3, 5, 6, 8, 9, and 14. Maybe 17.
TOC - 2, 4, 18. Maybe 12.

It is true that many great holes are great because they have severe hazards. But there are also many that are great for other reasons.

Bob

[Jason Thurman]

If we're counting OB, then 18 at TOC is out. Even if we're not counting it, I think the Valley of Sin is a pretty penal hazard even if it's not in the form of sand or water.

Re: 10th at Riviera, how many people get up and down from the greenside bunker?

There are only a few holes I can think of that are very good without having a penal hazard. Those holes all either have a very severe green or fantastic terrain that dictates risk and reward for different shot options. A hole with no risk is a crappy hole.

[Sean_A]

I spose since recovering from a greenside bunker is often not a matter of a lost shot, it could be argued that a great many of these hazards aren't terribly penal.  Indeed, many times no more penal than a grass hollow.

Niall - not buying it.  Foxy uses the dune cutting in from the right masterfully.  I would also say the approach is damn near unique.  For mine it certainly tops all the Silloth examples.  

I think I will throw out Liphook's 9th.  What a cool hole and one where a break in the fairway works very well - probably down to a natural break in the land.




Kington also has a few outstanding hazard free holes - sticking with par 3s

#9



#12


We mustn't forget Painswick's 6th


The 11th as well (red flag)?


Ciao

[David_Elvins]

Sean,

You might want to save that photo for the "What are the great holes with an electricity pilon"  thread.

[Mark Chaplin]

Leo - I'd pick 13 and 16 over 17 at Paraparaumu Beach, it just displays your depth of superb holes.

11th at Royal Ashdown Forest long par 3.

[Jason Thurman]

How are we defining hazards? Those holes at Kington may not have bunkers or water, but I'd be equally terrified of ending up on the side of one of those mounds.

[Tom Kelly]

4th Woodlands

4th Cruden Bay

[David Cronheim]

I like #6 at the Creek:



View from behind the green.

[Niall C]

Tom

The 4th at Cruden Bay has at least one bunker and OB up the full length of the left side. That's plenty enough hazards for a par 3  .

Niall

[jonathan_becker]

#7 at the Cattle Company

[David Whitmer]

#5 at Pinehurst #2.

#7 at Ballyneal.

Both have bunkers, but none that I would consider to be penal bunkers.

As a side note, my boss at the golf club where I used to work would always describe the golf course, which was very difficult, as "penile" rather than "penal." I kept begging him to learn the difference, but it never sunk in.

[Tom Kelly]

Tom

The 4th at Cruden Bay has at least one bunker and OB up the full length of the left side. That's plenty enough hazards for a par 3  .

Niall

The OB is miles left unless you top it off the back tees and the bunker isn't exactly 'dead' from what I remember. Is it really classed as a penal golf hole?!


Photo from www.golfarchitecturepictures.com

What is the definition of penal again? Does anybody really know for certain?