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David Harshbarger

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Gang Mowers for fairways
« on: October 03, 2012, 08:14:15 PM »
My course is looking at cost savings and one idea is going back to gang mowing the fairways. It's a smallish 9-holer, and we're looking to save on a replacement, at least for now.

Are there any courses out there using gang mowers, today?  Is it working?  Are they experiencing trade-offs?

Thanks, Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2012, 08:29:34 PM »
My course is looking at cost savings and one idea is going back to gang mowing the fairways. It's a smallish 9-holer, and we're looking to save on a replacement, at least for now.

Are there any courses out there using gang mowers, today?  Is it working?  Are they experiencing trade-offs?

If old equipment breaks or needs repairs/parts, getting them is a challenge

The newer riding mowers are far more efficient


Thanks, Dave

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2012, 08:42:54 PM »
 ;D 8) ;)

Gang mowers are actually quite healthy  , as they are very light.  The cut however leaves a lot to be desired. It tears and pulls and doesn't cut real close .

Interesting question though , as scissors work quite well for stylists lol.




Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2012, 10:54:24 PM »
Don Mahaffey's 7 tips for successful gang mowing

http://nuzzogolfcoursedesign.blogspot.com/2010/04/don-mahaffeys-7-successful-gang-mowing.html

Pat,
Will you be debating Don later tonight?

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2012, 01:02:29 AM »
Mike,

You might want to read what Don wrote :D

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2012, 03:54:35 AM »
David,

I am using gang mowers at my 9 holer. Get yourself a decent quality set preferably hydrolic driven with floating heads. They give a good quality, close cut. As they are usually pulled it does affect the mowing pattern a bit though if the greenkeeper is good then this will be lessened. Gangs are cheaper, quicker and the tractor can be used else where which dedicated fairway mowers can not.

Jon

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2012, 04:09:02 AM »
Every situation is different and efficiency is dependent on budget. On the whole traditional gang mowing is vastly cheaper and as JW states you can use the tractor. I am sure you could equip yourself to 'cut' a golf course for £30,000 all in and it would be 80% there. You could  also spend £500,000 and be 99% there. I think the key factor is what are you charging for 18 holes then do the sums backwards..... you can only spend what you got and you get what you pay for but to summarise gang mowing is not too bad.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Tom Culley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2012, 06:10:56 AM »
We used gang mowers on our small 9 hole family run course for 45 years but have recently invested in a John Deere 5 unit fairway mower. The improvement in cut quality has been massive and it allows the green keeper to shape the fairways nicely. The gang mowers that we were using was 40+ years old though so I'm sure modern alternatives are much better.
"Play the ball as it lies, play the course as you find it, and if you cannot do either, do what is fair. But to do what is fair, you need to know the Rules of Golf."

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2012, 06:47:20 AM »
Tom,

there won't be such a big difference in quality of cut if cutting units are of similar quality. Also, there would be something wrong if a new machine did not cut better than a 40+ year old one. It will be interesting to see how well the John Deere is cutting after 40+ years.

Jon

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2012, 08:13:19 AM »
Anyone who thinks you can't get a high quality cut with a gang unit needs to come see my course. I walked the fwys yesterday and they are cut at .500 inch and they are perfect. Its a reel mower, just like any other reel mower, but it does not suffer poor conditions. If you grow thatchy, puffy, lush turf, then yes the cut will suck...but if you grow lean, tight turf and keep it dry, a gang mower will cut just fine.

Patrick, you and I have very different definitions of efficiency. I remember a few years back you telling me I didn't know how to mow an island tee in a desert setting even though I'd spent the last 10 years doing it and you were full of theories. I can assure you that a gang mower can drastically reduce mower man hours and equipment repair costs, if you actually take on the challenge of making it work. That is the hard part and even though they are still made, try getting an equipment salesman to sell you one.  
Like anything, they are not for every application. A small tree lined course with tight approaches is one example where a fwy unit probably works best. But if you have some room, if your course drains, and if you are open minded enough to try something that most every one in the industry will try to talk you out of, then you can make gang mowers work and your course will improve because you will not spend all your time sitting on a mower. Its cutting grass, that's it, and golfer do not care how it is cut as long as the conditions are good.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 08:15:40 AM by Don_Mahaffey »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2012, 08:51:20 AM »
Don,

A lot of "if's" in your reply.

With many to most courses pinching their approaches, gang mowers aren't merely as efficient as modern mowers.

I'd appreciate it if you could cite the specific "desert" thread you referenced.
Sometimes recollections don't reflect the actual exchange.

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2012, 09:09:07 AM »
Don and Mike,
I was hoping you we're both going to post on this thread, as there are a couple of elements that I wondered if you could clarify, for a course set up as you describe.

What kind of widths inhibit the use of a gang mower, do the outer reels lift hydraulically vertical to allow transit between holes along paths? How wide does a path need to be. I suppose the wider the better, as in the faster you get the grass cut?

I know you also advise not to cut wet or recently irrigated grass where possible, does this mean that a gang mower is better suited to dryer or limited/intermittent rainfall?

Do you also need to first "cut in" the outer cut ahead of the gang mower with a cylinder mower/ride on?

Does it help if you have some fairways that meet or are shared, as this aids less transit?

Cheers.
BM
@theflatsticker

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2012, 12:16:55 PM »
I know that when Diamond Springs in Western Michigan was built, Mike DeVries designed it knowing that Kris Shuemaker (past Superintendent) planned on mowing the golf course with refurbished Toro Parkermasters. These things are tanks, cu a lot of turf in a short period of time and the upfront cost is not thing $50-$60k that the lightweight units are.
  In fact, there are very VERY high end clubs in south FL that use the gang mowers in the summer months because they save some much labor and time. Because of the weight of the reels, they really get into the bermudagrass, too.

Parkmaster


More commonly used gang mower

Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2012, 01:36:50 PM »
Brett,

although I am neither Don nor Mike I will give my penny's worth as I have some experience.

Don and Mike,
I was hoping you we're both going to post on this thread, as there are a couple of elements that I wondered if you could clarify, for a course set up as you describe.

What kind of widths inhibit the use of a gang mower, do the outer reels lift hydraulically vertical to allow transit between holes along paths? How wide does a path need to be. I suppose the wider the better, as in the faster you get the grass cut?

This depends on the width of the tractor and gang unit but it is safe to say that where a dedicated fairway mower can go a tractor/gang can also fit

I know you also advise not to cut wet or recently irrigated grass where possible, does this mean that a gang mower is better suited to dryer or limited/intermittent rainfall?

One of the problems of trailed units is that the tractor tyres can flatten the grass ahead of the cutting units leaving lines of longer grass. This is a problem for semi and rough if the grass is wet but not if it is dry. It should not be a problem for fairways however. Also, it is possible to get gang units that are out front and wrap around if the tractor is set up for it which eliminates this problem

Do you also need to first "cut in" the outer cut ahead of the gang mower with a cylinder mower/ride on?

No

Does it help if you have some fairways that meet or are shared, as this aids less transit?

No, not really but because gangs cut at a much faster rate it is possible to have larger fairways. Indeed, I wonder if the narrowing of fairways is not to do with the slower cutting of dedicated mowers.

Cheers.
BM

David Harshbarger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2012, 07:54:24 PM »
Thank you all for your insight.  I will pass on that well maintained reels on gang mowers can deliver from acceptable to exceptional conditions, especially if the course is kept fine and dry.

Very much appreciated.

Dave
The trouble with modern equipment and distance—and I don't see anyone pointing this out—is that it robs from the player's experience. - Mickey Wright

Matt Day

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2012, 08:29:19 PM »
Brett
many moons ago I worked for the Perth John Deere Golf and Turf distributor and sold a few of these, I'm not sure if they are still available.

Sold mainly to councils for mowing ovals, heavy heads ideal for kikuyu. Hydrualic lift and PTO driven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sjMQ1Gf-Q0


Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2012, 10:37:40 PM »
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2012, 11:51:33 AM »

One thing I've learned is this subject always seems to bring out some naysayers. When I posted about it on Tommy's site, I was pretty much taken to task by a super who felt like using a large gang mower was a huge backward step for golf course management. My view on the subject is obviously different then his, but I also acknowledge that everyone does it a little differently, or very differently, and I'm not trying to change the world.
My basic philosophy is, we spend way to much time and money mowing grass. I believe golfers care about conditions, and more specifically, they care about the lies they get on the course. As long as that lie is good, they don't care what mower was used or what fertilizer was sprayed, or how far apart the irrigation heads are.....
At Tony's club, they are not going to use gang mowers. At the clubs Pat plays at, they are not going to use gang mowers. I'm perfectly OK with that as they have members, BODs, green committees, and highly trained superintendents who know what they want to do and how to do it. That's great.
But, they are many thousands of courses around the world that do not have the resources to mow like they do at Pat's clubs. And for those clubs, with limited manpower and limited resources for equipment and equipment repair costs, proper use of a gang mower should be a real consideration.
If we grade mowing on a scale of 1-10, and we assume the turf is properly managed, the best lightweight fwy mowers will have a quality of cut we might rate at an 8, with only higher ratings being possible by smaller reeled machines that only the highest budgeted courses could afford. With proper turf management and a well cared for gang unit, I believe you could be in the 6-7 range on that scale. And I believe that level would be more then acceptable to the vast majority of players.
At most mid level clubs, multiple machines are sent out to mow. You might have a triplex mow tees and collars, possibly approaches as well, and five gang light weight fwy units mow the fwys. On a typical mowing day you might have 3-5 machines headed out, more for clubs that try to get all the mowing done ahead of play. If you look at the image below, you might have a trim type mower, either a triplex or lightweight fwy unit mow the perimeter of the fwy and pick up the tight ares around the bunkers and around the green, the areas in blue. A larger 7-9 gang pull behind unit then can pick up the majority of the golf hole, the green area. This is where you pick up efficiency.  The argument I've heard against this is "you have to send out more then one machine", except most courses are already sending out multiple machines and this approach, done right, will reduce the number of machines and men mowing. They are other agruments as well like " you can't cut in tight areas"...things like that, but that is over come by utilizing the samller machines to do what they do best and using big boy to do what he does best and that is getting the large turf areas mowed as quickly and efficiently as possible.
It is a real alternative for courses that have to be concerned with operational costs.





Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »
That is the hard part and even though they are still made, try getting an equipment salesman to sell you one.  
I saw this happen. Every time the owner spoke about gang mowing, the salesman did everything he could to change the subject.

Don, you spent a fair bit of time in Oregon. Would you use gang mowers in the wetter regions of the state? And ... What about cutting fairways with dew?

I'll also add most folks wouldn't know what machine cut what, just as most can't tell poa from rye, fescue or bent.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 12:02:26 PM by Tony Ristola »

Don_Mahaffey

Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2012, 12:06:25 PM »
Tony,
I worked in Bend which is high desert and would be no problem for a gang. The coast would be different, you would have to have a light weight for the wet periods, but a gang would work fine in the summer when you do most of your mowing. We use it in the dew all the time here on the gulf coast. We don't use it when we have extended rainy periods as we don't want the tractor tearing turf when we turn. Can't do a K turn with a tractor and pull behind.  

The gang units don't break, so no parts sales after the initial purchase. The bed knifes last a full season. There is basically very little to go wrong compared to most moderd mowing equipment which is very expensive to buy and repair. We bought our gang for 10K and refurbised it. That was 4 years ago and we haven't had a repair since, other then new bed knifes every season and three grinds a year, plus PM on the tractor which serves other purposes as well. For a limited resource course where the guy who repairs the equipment might also participate in other activites, using equipment that doesn't break is a good thing.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 12:13:01 PM by Don_Mahaffey »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2012, 12:50:24 PM »
David,
We finally got a fairway unit at our course and it has made a big difference in the finished product. Plus, our guys can now mow in wetter conditions and they have the option of crosscutting when they feel the need to do so. We only have a dedicated crew of two (w/an occasional guy coming over from other parts of the grounds) and the new mower has allowed one of them to be doing other jobs instead of having to 'clean up' after the old gangs.



p.s. Needless to say we got along OK for many years with the tractor/gang setup, but at the moment there are many good deals on used or repo'ed fairway units so it might be a good idea to bring one in for a week or two for a 'test drive' and see the results.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Brett_Morrissy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2012, 10:24:49 PM »
Don,
Thanks for all your valuable experience here.

What is the FW turf at WP?

How could you describe in more detail the difference between 8/10 fwy cut and a 6/10 fwy cut?
- the difference is potentially I suppose 30% improvement from 6 up to 8?!?

Was the work at Dismal II designed with gang mowing in mind? Or is this where the perception between a 6 and and 8 differences arise - in a premium end product course?

Do the gangs cope with the stronger undulations, bumps, humps and mounds better or worse than the triplex type, does it depend on the width of the reels?

Does anyone know of the sand hills courses, seaside links or the Irish dunes courses use gang mowing?
@theflatsticker

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2012, 11:27:58 PM »

Does anyone know of the sand hills courses, seaside links or the Irish dunes courses use gang mowing?


This one doesn't:

"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2012, 03:25:04 AM »

Do the gangs cope with the stronger undulations, bumps, humps and mounds better or worse than the triplex type, does it depend on the width of the reels?



Whether dedicated mower or gangs it depends mainly on the cutting unit. Wheel driven gangs will cope with mounding better than dedicated as the middle unit does not get trapped under the machine.

Jim,

you can stripe with gangs as well

Jon
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 04:41:36 AM by Jon Wiggett »

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Gang Mowers for fairways
« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2012, 06:52:00 AM »
Jon.
I didn't mean to suggest that stripng couldn't be done w/a gang mower, only that the photo of the fairway at Sand Hills shows a stripe that's been laid down by a lightweight unit, not a gang.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon