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JNC Lyon

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White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« on: September 25, 2012, 10:43:10 PM »
Okay, so this thread is a month late.  Not being a slacker college student has cut into my GCA posting time.  Nevertheless, I'll take a stab at the Philly-area Bobby Weed showdown here:

Routing:  Weed got lucky with White Manor.  He inherited an intimate piece of property with a Golden Age-ish routing.  The property is a bit funky, with the huge descent from and ascent to the clubhouse reminding of places like Mountain Ridge or Schuylkill.  This setup yields two brutes at 9 and 18, which, while both solid holes, have a similarity that detracts from the overall feel of the course.  Moreover, every hole runs north-south, which creates some redundancies in wind direction throughout.  Beyond these caveats, the routing and White Manor is excellent, switching back and forth constantly, swooping gracefully up and down the dramatic land features, and seeming to find the best holes possible.  Glen Mills has a different set of constraints that seem obligatory for a modern layout: wetlands and cart golf.  Where Weed couldn't weed-whack or chop down trees, there are some absolutely wretched golf holes.  Where he was free to roam, he seems to find create features, such as the old quarry at 4, the slinging hillside at 12, or the shelf green at 14.  Glen Mills is designed for cart golf, but it reasonably walkable for the avid walker (I guess I'd put myself in that category).  For a modern like Glen Mills, I guess that's about as much as one can ask.  I'd give the edge to WM here.

Par 3s:  White Manor has two absolute bears at 3 and 14, a devil at 8, and a charmer in dire need of tree-trimming at 12.  Glen Mills has a two drop shots (a subtle one at 5 and a wild one at 10), a neat Redan (14) another bear (7) and a clunker over water (16).  The pond par three 8th at WM has  is at least handsome, but the 16th at GM is both ugly and cliched.  14 at GM is the best of all of them, and the long threes at WM have some great ground movement.  Overall the threes at GM are slightly more unique, and I'm a sucker for five par threes.  Ad GM.

Par 4s:  White Manor's par fours are absolutely brilliant, the repetition at 9 and 18 not withstanding.  The opener is a little unsettling (and I still have no idea where that tee shot went), but its quirk gives it some charm.  The short fours are stunners at 7 and 15.  The centerline bunkering at 4 is brilliant, and the green site at 10 is pure gold.  2 and 5 are classic doglegs.  13 is the only questionable four out there, but the wild green makes it more endearing.  GM, as with the 3s and 5s, is either feast or famine.  I love holes like 2 (over-the-rise diagonal with a fun green site), 3 (wicked green there), 12 (have to hit the 80-yard putt on the second shot) or 13 (exactly how a long four should be).  I hate holes like 11 (is there a fairway out there?).  Some of those par fours, particularly 8 and 9, would be better served with multiple plays.  Even so, WM dominates in this category.

Par 5s:  GM has two great ones.  4 has a stunner of a second shot.  I'd put that up there as one of my favorite shots of the year, and I still thinking with a slider fade that I could make a 3 there.  15 is pretty rad as well, with a biarritz green providing a brilliant defense on a reachable two-shotter.  GM also has two horrible ones.  6 needs several trees removed to be viable.  The play there is a pair of 4-irons and a wedge, but it's a very one-dimensional hole that fails to inspire greatness.  17 is the long version of 11, with no options and no room for error.  WM doesn't have a great five like the two at GM.  6 is a solid five with brilliant hidden green.  11 is an awkward par five that finishes with a neat green, and 17 is a strange reachable two-shotter that actually plays pretty well on the ground.  Overall, I'll call it even on the long holes, with the disclaimer that two of the fives are the two worst holes at Glen Mills.

Greens:  What can I say here:  these are two excellent sets of greens.  Glen Mills alternates between the subtle and the dramatic, whereas White Manor has a more consistently rippling set throughout.  Ultimately, the greens at White Manor are more to my personal taste.  But you can't go wrong at either course.  The green sites and surrounds are where Weed seems to add the most value.

At the end of the day, I'll take White Manor over Glen Mills by a pretty wide margin.  I like Glen Mills a great deal.  I love the concept of the public course at the reform school, and the course itself provides ample drama and loads of challenge.  The great ones at Glen Mills are phenomenal golf holes, but the bad ones need to blown up immediately.  White Manor is solid throughout, with flashes of brilliance on holes like 4, 7, 10 and 15.  The routing is cozy and easily walked.  The bunkering ties in seamlessly with the land, and the greens are just my kind of fun.

Thoughts?  As always, I'm willing to defend all opinions to the best of my ability.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sam Morrow

Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2012, 10:51:08 PM »
Didn't get to White Manor but Glen Mills makes a mean chicken salad sandwich. How far apart are they? At Glen Mills the route I took from New Jersey made me think I was in Delaware.

Scott Warren

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Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2012, 10:54:51 PM »
Wretched. A fantastic word and fitting for the 6th, 11th and 17th at Glen Mills.

Shame, too, because 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9, 12, 14, 15, 18 are really good to great holes.

Agree on the second shot to 4. Whether going for it or laying up, there is temptation and decision-making to be done.

Sam Morrow

Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2012, 10:56:29 PM »
Now that I think about it what is wrong with 11 and 17? Hit good shots and don't be pussies.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2012, 10:59:53 PM »
They are about 9 miles apart--White Manor is due north, pretty close to Tom Paul's compound.  The grilled chicken was solid at Glen Mills, and I was big fan of the bar we went to in downtown Malvern.  Our waitress was smokin'.  I think her name was Brooke.

11 and 17 and GM are way too narrow.  11's fairway was under 20 yards.  The fairway can be hit, but that doesn't mean it's not one-dimensional golf hole devoid of interest or strategy.  To me, those two are worst type of golf hole: don't think just hit it, and anything that doesn't hit the bath towel of a target results in an X.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sam Morrow

Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2012, 11:01:54 PM »
They are about 9 miles apart--White Manor is due north, pretty close to Tom Paul's compound.  The grilled chicken was solid at Glen Mills, and I was big fan of the bar we went to in downtown Malvern.  Our waitress was smokin'.  I think her name was Brooke.

11 and 17 and GM are way too narrow.  11's fairway was under 20 yards.  The fairway can be hit, but that doesn't mean it's not one-dimensional golf hole devoid of interest or strategy.  To me, those two are worst type of golf hole: don't think just hit it, and anything that doesn't hit the bath towel of a target results in an X.


I found plenty of width on 17 and 11 is a short hole. Fairways and greens

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2012, 11:09:10 PM »
They are about 9 miles apart--White Manor is due north, pretty close to Tom Paul's compound.  The grilled chicken was solid at Glen Mills, and I was big fan of the bar we went to in downtown Malvern.  Our waitress was smokin'.  I think her name was Brooke.

11 and 17 and GM are way too narrow.  11's fairway was under 20 yards.  The fairway can be hit, but that doesn't mean it's not one-dimensional golf hole devoid of interest or strategy.  To me, those two are worst type of golf hole: don't think just hit it, and anything that doesn't hit the bath towel of a target results in an X.


I found plenty of width on 17 and 11 is a short hole. Fairways and greens

17 is, at most, 30 yards wide, with penalty shots waiting for misses to either side.  11 is the same story.  "Fairways and greens" is not compelling golf either.  A hole that requires only a straight tee shot to a narrow fairway and a stock iron shot to a green is boring, one-dimensional and lazy architecture.  It requires no skill to build holes such as these.  Mayday has a pretty good proposal on how make these better holes by creating diagonal tee shots on both rather than just arrow-straight affairs. 
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Sam Morrow

Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2012, 11:10:34 PM »
They are about 9 miles apart--White Manor is due north, pretty close to Tom Paul's compound.  The grilled chicken was solid at Glen Mills, and I was big fan of the bar we went to in downtown Malvern.  Our waitress was smokin'.  I think her name was Brooke.

11 and 17 and GM are way too narrow.  11's fairway was under 20 yards.  The fairway can be hit, but that doesn't mean it's not one-dimensional golf hole devoid of interest or strategy.  To me, those two are worst type of golf hole: don't think just hit it, and anything that doesn't hit the bath towel of a target results in an X.


I found plenty of width on 17 and 11 is a short hole. Fairways and greens

17 is, at most, 30 yards wide, with penalty shots waiting for misses to either side.  11 is the same story.  "Fairways and greens" is not compelling golf either.  A hole that requires only a straight tee shot to a narrow fairway and a stock iron shot to a green is boring, one-dimensional and lazy architecture.  It requires no skill to build holes such as these.  Mayday has a pretty good proposal on how make these better holes by creating diagonal tee shots on both rather than just arrow-straight affairs. 

I can see the knock on 11, I thought it and 6 were probably the weakest holes on the course but I thought 17 was really good.

Brian Colbert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2012, 12:03:59 AM »
Never played Glen Mills. But JNC I think it is shortsighted to say that White Manor doesn't have a great par 5. I think 17 is one of the most fun and interesting par 5s I have ever played. The tee shot is relatively straight forward, but a beautiful view as you see one of the more dramatic elevation changes on any of the holes on the property, and the bunker really makes you think. Downwind I have elected to hit less than driver on this hole in the past. If you want to bust one you can catch the speed slot and chase it down another 20+ yards. You have plenty of options on the second shot, too. The green is tricky and designed to be approached with a wedge, but it will reward a great shot from far away, as I myself have been fortunate enough to have a handful of eagles there. It is a risk-reward par 5 which makes you wonder if it's worth it to ever go for it even though you will have a relatively short shot in. If you lay up, from above the ground it looks like a pretty straightforward shot with no strategic interest. However, the mounding on the right side of the fairway incentivize a layup as close to the water as possible. The green itself has multiple levels and just being on in two does not guarantee the player a birdie. One criticism I have is that it is possible to be on the green and have to hit a chip shot, which I think is a poor design feature in any hole, but I think the strategic interest and just pure fun of that hole make up for a nit picky criticism like that.

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2012, 08:34:51 AM »
The part of 17 I found odd is to have the pond in front of the green and the natrual hazard behind. 

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

John Shimony

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2012, 11:07:24 AM »
Regarding the 17th at WM, I recall bad mouthing the pond for one reason or another during my visit but in retrospect it is located at the lowest spot on the property so it's not a blatantly contrived hazard though I do think it is unnecessary and man made.  Even though Brian says the best layup is close to the pond one can lay up 30 yards to the right of it and still have a short wedge into the green.  All in all I like the hole.  I reserve judgement on Glen Mills until I play the course.
John Shimony
Philadelphia, PA

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2012, 04:37:38 PM »
Brian,

I'm guessing 17 may be a hole that requires multiples plays to really make a judgement.  After one play, I'd say it's a good hole, but not necessarily a great one.  Standing on the tee, my first impression was that 17 is a very strange type of par five because the pond is so central and dominant.  However, there is a lot more room out to the right on the layup than you first realize, which makes the hole much more playable.  It seems like it is relatively to bump two shots down to the end of the fairway and hit a wedge on to the green, but hitting the green in two requires a solid tee shot and then a rifle shot of an iron.  That long iron approach is a thrill.  I got to hit it for my third after wedging out from a bad lie, but it was thrilling nonetheless.  I'm not sure how well the hole uses angles, as you can't flirt with a hazard off the tee to gain an advantage on the second shot.  Even so, it's a good hole, but I wouldn't declare it great until I gave it a second look.

Out of curiosity, what club do you usually hit in for your second shot on the 17th?
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Mark McKeever

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2012, 06:35:11 PM »
When I played out there with Brian, a bad tee shot down the left cost me any ability to go after the green so I was forced to lay up.  Still a nervous shot in there with a wedge, especially with a front flag.   I think Brian hit some sort of fairway wood in right?  We were also playing the tips which adds a few more paces.

Mark
Best MGA showers - Bayonne

"Dude, he's a total d***"

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »
 I have more fun at Glen Mills. There is more drama there with 5 par threes that rival any course in the area. There are also several wonderful par fours like #2, #8,#9,#13(my fav), and #18. I also think #4 has the best use of a treeline for a par 5 teeshot that I have seen. I did send my ideas for 11 and 17  to Weed but , incredibly :o, I got no reply.

 Simply I suggest the play for the #11 green should go down the #17 fairway from a tee above #17 green. Remove a few trees between #11 and #17 and you allow a short club for the higher handicap player across the creek to a par 5 green at #11. Then #17 tee sits above #11 green and plays a bottle hole fairway back up the present #11 fairway. The approach to the green is across the creek with a marvelous look to the #17 green.

  This change does a few things. It changes the routing sequence to eliminate #15 and #17 as near back to back par 5's. It eliminates a parallel hazard on two holes and replaces it with an easy crossover for the lesser player and an herioc one for the better player. It also recogizes that a fade is the usual miss for the average golfer and gives them room for this miss. It also eliminates the forced carry tee shot on #17 but keeps the rock area for approaches to #11. Cart paths can be kept where they are .

I can imagine a fun short par 3 #19 hole placed in the rocks as well. I also see the chance for a shorter tee that makes the new #17 a driveable par 4.

  White Manor is a wonderful renovation, second only to DuPont in my opinion. I would prefer that they angled the holes that go up and down from the clubhouse and placed the creek on #1 at the side or back of the green to create an interesting and different look. I enjoy the short par 4's in particular. My favorite hole is #11, the one with the pond on the right and the dynamic approach to a great green. I am not a fan of the bunker on the right of #8. I believe you should have a bailout there.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2012, 10:29:42 AM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Kris Shreiner

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Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2012, 01:53:43 PM »
JNC,

Bang on assessments, including the verdict, from my view.

Mike M,

Usually agree with your take, but there is some bad golf at GM which makes it hard to enjoy.

Cheers,
Kris 8)
"I said in a talk at the Dunhill Tournament in St. Andrews a few years back that I thought any of the caddies I'd had that week would probably make a good golf course architect. We all want to ask golfers of all abilities to get more out of their games -caddies do that for a living." T.Doak

mike_malone

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Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2012, 02:37:27 PM »
 Kris,

   It shows how one's personal standards make all the difference in our assessment.
AKA Mayday

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2012, 10:18:08 PM »
Mayday,

Doesn't any hole with heavy hazard usage have drama?  Yet there is a difference between Godfather-quality drama and General-Hospital drama.  4 at Glen Mills is the former, 6 and 17 are the latter.  Sure, lots of things can go wrong on 6 and 17, but those holes don't really tempt or inspire.  For most great holes, especially great par fives, I believe temptation and inspiration are two key aspects.  Width is a big part of creating those things, 6 and 17 have less width than, well, any par fives anywhere.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2012, 11:06:45 PM »
Mayday,

Doesn't any hole with heavy hazard usage have drama?  Yet there is a difference between Godfather-quality drama and General-Hospital drama.  4 at Glen Mills is the former, 6 and 17 are the latter.  Sure, lots of things can go wrong on 6 and 17, but those holes don't really tempt or inspire.  For most great holes, especially great par fives, I believe temptation and inspiration are two key aspects.  Width is a big part of creating those things, 6 and 17 have less width than, well, any par fives anywhere.

I have to agree with Mr Lyon on this one. Temptation is a key factor that seem to be lacking on tight holes with no directional decision to make. There may be a club selection decision to make based on what you think you can keep between the trouble and hopefully minimize the lost ball risk. These holes can be very difficult to execute well but certainly lack something in my mind. If the primary drama of the hole is whether or not I finish the hole with the ball I started that is not inspiring golf in my opinion.

Saying that, in small doses there is a place for penal/tight holes depending on the property and they can be a bitch to play and interesting in match play.

JNC Lyon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2012, 01:24:14 AM »
Jim,

The key phrase there, I think, is "in small doses."  Unfortunately, it seems like architects can never employ just one or two narrow holes.  There always seem to be at least 3 or 4 on a course that does use narrow holes.  For my money 3 or 4 is too many.  I would prefer one or two at most.  Beyond that, width opens the door to variety, options, and, ultimately, drama.
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

Brian Colbert

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Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2012, 11:36:42 AM »
JNC,

I usually hit 3-wood into the green but I've hit as little as 7-iron in downwind F&F conditions. I am not a fan of artificial hazards at all, but this is one which I think is used pretty well. The pump house leads me to believe it may have functional purposes as well although I have nothing to base this off of since I never asked in my time there.

archie_struthers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: White Manor vs. Glen Mills
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2012, 06:26:16 PM »
White Manor is so much better.  No contest.