Thoughts on this hole? - Par 5 16th at Lido Golf Club (NY)

[George_Bahto]

(Corey Miller asked) - Mr Bahto

Didn't you design a replica Lido course?  Would it be too much to ask for you to post your version?  Would it have been an exact replica of this hole?

Corey, at one point Mike Keiser wanted to replicate the original Lido course - I think that is what you may be thinking about

[Niall C]

"Patrick,

My hope was he could explain why penal, no bailout, and card wrecker turn out to be great. Not a very good preamble to a positive result."

GJ

I'll bet just about every great architect has designed a hole like that, and I bet a lot of them are great holes. For instance, penal, no bailout and card wrecker would be a perfect description of the Postage Stamp. Perhaps a more pertinent example would be the 13th at Silloth which was discussed in length on the BUDA threads. Occasionally there's nothing wrong with a hole that requires you to take it on, IMO.

Niall

Doak, Hanse, C&C, examples please.

Your definition of penal could use some exposition too. 17th at Sawgrass is penal, with no bailout, and is a card wrecker. Somehow I don't think the postage stamp quite measures up to that standard.

GJ

Perhaps you could let me know where the bailout area is on the Postage Stamp ? Not a card wrecker, really ! Not penal ? I'm assuming you've never played it but I'm also thinking you've probably never even seen it from your comments here. Would you perhaps accept that the general consensus is that its a great hole ?

Niall

[Garland Bayley]

"Patrick,

My hope was he could explain why penal, no bailout, and card wrecker turn out to be great. Not a very good preamble to a positive result."

GJ

I'll bet just about every great architect has designed a hole like that, and I bet a lot of them are great holes. For instance, penal, no bailout and card wrecker would be a perfect description of the Postage Stamp. Perhaps a more pertinent example would be the 13th at Silloth which was discussed in length on the BUDA threads. Occasionally there's nothing wrong with a hole that requires you to take it on, IMO.

Niall

Doak, Hanse, C&C, examples please.

Your definition of penal could use some exposition too. 17th at Sawgrass is penal, with no bailout, and is a card wrecker. Somehow I don't think the postage stamp quite measures up to that standard.

GJ

Perhaps you could let me know where the bailout area is on the Postage Stamp ? Not a card wrecker, really ! Not penal ? I'm assuming you've never played it but I'm also thinking you've probably never even seen it from your comments here. Would you perhaps accept that the general consensus is that its a great hole ?

Niall

It's just that I make better golf swings when on dry land than when submerged.

Also, a double bogey is not a card wrecker for me.

[Niall C]

GJ

I note you trying to diffuse our discussion by bringing it down to DEFCON 4 with a little bit of humour and perhaps I should respond in kind but I think the discussion has brought up an interesting point, namely the assumption that landing in water is the ultimate penalty. I recall playing the Postage Stamp with a pal who is a member at Troon and seeing him land in the left hand bunker at the foot of the slope. My friend who is still a single figure handicapper, experienced links player and former club champion at Fraserburgh, proceeded to travel from one end of the bunker to the other trying to get his ball out. I think the final tally was something like a nine.

On more than one occasion I've had lies like you find round that green and ended up taking several shots just to make progress. Often taking a drop isn't gauranteed to give you any better a lie. Yes, you can sometimes land lucky and get the ultimate fluffy lie but you couldn't count on it.

Niall

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Because of the hole being so flat, you can only make out the fairway if you aim left off the tee.  Everything straight and to the right fairway gets blocked out by the tall grass/weeds/bushes/bambo/etc that line the waters' edges.  The same holds true for your second shot from most spots.

Are you saying that the environmentalists won't let them cut the tall grass/weeds/bushes/bamboo so that you could see the fairway ?

[Garland Bayley]

Niall,

DEFCON? Really?

My statement was that the postage stamp did not reach the degree of difficulty that the 17th at Sawgrass does. How many people have shot rounds in the 200s at Troon? With a good quarter of the strokes coming at the Postage Stamp? Not really any DEF in that CON.

You want DEFCON? Here's some DEFCON! Clearly you are just running off at the keyboard, because you make grandiose statements about nearly all architects, and then fail to substantiate when challenged on it. How's that for DEFCON?
 

[Niall C]

GJ

Ah, obviously I mistook sarcasm for humour, my mistake. I wasn't comparing Troon v TPC in terms of overall difficulty, I was comparing 17th at TPC with Postage Stamp, showing that you didn't need an ocean of water to be a card wrecker with no bail AND still be a great hole. Presumably you don't dispute that ?

Niall