Long Drives - Is there no ARCHITECTURAL defense

[TEPaul]

Pat Mucci said:

"TEPaul,
He's a plus 4 handicap.
He wasn't a plus 4 handicap three years ago."

Pat,
Again, I say, so what? Do you or someone else think a course or a hole should be redone somehow for him, or that the game should be changed somehow? There's a +5 handicapper at Indian Creek and I checked on him with a couple of Walker Cuppers and they said he really is a +5 handicapper (although they aren't).

So again, your friend isn't the first +4 and he won't be the last. No need to alter architecture because of him and maybe he might want to consider the pro tour where handicaps are relevant.

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

TEPaul,

I realize that you are in denial, but consider this.

Ten guys averaged over 300 yards on their drives at Houston, with some drives approaching the 400 yard mark.

Now, for you and others who will say that it's just the PGA Tour Pros, I ask you to consider this:

Ran Morrisset recently drove a 321 yard par 4 green.
Yesterday, I carried a tee shot on the 7th hole at Boca Rio 265 yards into a soaking wet fairway.  40 years ago I couldn't get the ball 265 yards off the tee with my best drive and a throw.

Increased and incredible distances aren't an abberation limited to a select few, it's systemic, AND.... the increases are going to continue, especially with the next generation of young players who have honed their skills on the new equipment.

The driving distance disparity between golfers is increasing every day, and golf courses can't get long enough, quick enough, or insert three more sets of tees to accomodate this phenomenon.

On the golf channel last night they posed the question of distance and golf courses to some touring pros.
Surprisingly, everyone seemed to acknowledge the problem or the facts with respect to todays distances and golf courses.
While there were a variety of opinions on what to do, it appeared that the predominant solution was to lengthen the golf courses.  What everyone failed to address is, what happens if you don't have the land to do so ?

That is where the real problem lies, because those golf courses are the ones where you can't make wholesale changes to the golf course, hence the intent of the original architecture is being rendered meaningless.

As one of the last three members of the Flat Earth Society I expect that it will take you a while to come to grips with the distance problem as it relates to the obsolescence of golf course architecture, but at least, give it some thought.  

[ForkaB]

I HAVE THE ANSWER!!!!

Forget about lengthening courses, just shorten the clubs!  A simple rule change saying that clubs must have a minimum loft of, say, 23 degrees.

Case closed.

[DMoriarty]

Shivas . . . you ignorant slut . . .

your 16th at CPc example is so flawed and goofy, it's not worth any intelligent man's time to respond, so here I go: . . . .First, even the short hitters go for that green.  So either everybody is smart or everybody is dumb, with one exception....

 
Given that choice, definitely everybody is DUMB. (Actually, we all go for it and some are smart, but MOST are DUMB.)  Assuming the goal is to take the route that either leads to the best chance of minimizing your score or beating your opponent, it is just not rational to go for it for most people, most of the time.  The fact that we do probably says a lot about what we are really looking for out of golf (see Patrick's recent thread) and but very little about the inherent strategic beauty and balance of this hole.  

Those who don't, can't.  Where's the choice and the smart play in that?  It's not a smart play to bail left if it is your only possibility.

The first time I played the hole I went for it and, as you witnessed, failed miserably.  The second time I played left, and after a weak chip, was happy with a two putt bogey.  Of course I am so bad that you might just categorize me in or close to the "those who can't" camp.

But my playing partner also played left, then chipped to about 7 ft.  No score to protect, no big money match, just playing for fun.   He must be in the "those how can't" camp too, right?  You would know, I think you played a team match against him in the King's Cup?  Tall left-handed guy from Moorpark in So. Cal?   Probably didn't have a choice.  Probably cant carry the ball 200 yds.  Probably, when it comes to athletic endeavors, he is too weak of mind to see that everyone always goes for it so going for it is always the smart play.  By the way, how'd that match go?

Laying up on 16 at CPC was one of the most exhilarating things I've ever done in golf, perhaps second only to playing the course itself.  Those who refuse to use their heads and to see it as an option have no idea the thrill they are missing.

As to the rest of your post, what an odd, conspiratorial world you must live in.  With everyone always out to take away your inherent rights, such as your right to hit ball far --  No wait, the hole allows you plenty of room to hit ball far (especially with the intended back tee) so it must be your inherent right to have your ability to hit ball far with only semi-accuracy have you reap great benefits over others who cant.  What was MacKenzie thinking with his different route stuff?  What a moral relativist!  

There is a place for people like you, it is called the LDA Tour.  Just please stay away from real golf courses, okay.  

. . . . oh yeah, I almost forgot, the AWMS (Angry White Male Society) called looking for your phone number.  They are putting together a swimsuit calendar, and are considering you for Mr. February.  I hope you don't mind that I gave them your number.

[THuckaby2]

Laying up on 16 at CPC was one of the most exhilarating things I've ever done in golf, perhaps second only to playing the course itself.  Those who refuse to use their heads and to see it as an option have no idea the thrill they are missing.

Dave, I am digging your argument and enjoying the battle between you and Shivas here... but if you REALLY believe the above line, then my friend, well... I won't finish the thought.  

Only if you reply and say you really believe this will I take this further.

You can't possibly mean this, can you?

TH

[DMoriarty]

Tom, what can I say?  I am Catholic.  And as a Catholic, resisting temptation is the only avenue I know to eternal bliss.

[ForkaB]

Dave

What sort of tartan is "Moriarty"?  I'll order you a kilt/skirt so you can play like your hero MacKenzie, who probably could never make the carry at 16 CPC and probably went to Marion Hollins on a regular basis for injections of testosterone.

When I get to the point that I can't even think of carrying that chasm, I'll just walk off the course and play 16, 17 and 18 at Pacific Grove, happily, for the rest of my life.

[THuckaby2]

I'm Catholic also, Dave.

I'm also sane.

Tell me you wouldn't trade your tee shot for mine, and if that's the case, I'll let it go, just leaving you in a Goodalian realm of unique contrarianism regarding perhaps the most famous golf hole on this planet.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Rich - we crossed in cyberspace!

I am gladdened to know that your contrary nature doesn't extend to this, in any case.  My apologies for making an adjective out of you!  

TH

[DMoriarty]

As to laying up at 16, you're plenty long to get there with normal winds.  You know that.  He certainly is, too.  But I'm lost as to the point.  16 is an exceptional hole.  One of, if not the best, in the world.  If your point is that every hole should be like 16, I agree emphatically.  But how does 16 give the short hitter an advantage?  

The short hitter never has the "advantage."  The longer hitter can always choose to cut back and follow the same route as the short hitter.  But 16 gives the short hitter an alternate route that gives him a fighting chance against any long hitter.   And, if we looked at probabilities of success, I'll bet the shorter route is often more advantageous than the long route.  If anyone would dare to take it.  

All I am saying is build holes that have an alternate route with a relatively comparable chance of success.  We were talking about a hole modeled after 5 at Rustic, which I think accomplishes this, in a much more subtle way than 16, of course.

Rich.  My maternal grandmother was a MacKinnon.  It should be easy to find that tartan, if you can find one big enough.  I would gladly play Cypress so attired, and lay up again if the situation so circumstances dictated.  You just might not want to be with me if the wind picks up.  

[THuckaby2]

MacKinnon?  One of my best friends on this earth is a McKinnon (without the a).  Small world...

Excellent comeback in any case.

Let's just hope we can put this to the test some day... get you in a group not with smart-playing, nice as can be, non-ridiculing Lynn, but on a calm day in a group with shivas, Goodale and I, all of whom hit it cleanly over, leaving you with the last go.

If you lay up then, in that scenario, we will know you are either completely insane or very strong in your convictions!

TH

[Mike Benham]

The first time I played the hole I went for it

So are you smart or are you dumb?  Or are you smart but did a dumb thing?

Two-words:  PEER PRESSURE ...

On the best hole in the world, the first time you play it, you have no option other than to go for the green.  Now if we all had the opportunity to play the course routinely, then we may learn to be smart and lay-up ...

[THuckaby2]

So are you smart or are you dumb?  Or are you smart but did a dumb thing?

Two-words:  PEER PRESSURE ...

On the best hole in the world, the first time you play it, you have no option other than to go for the green.  Now if we all had the opportunity to play the course routinely, then we may learn to be smart and lay-up ...

EXACTLY what I was trying to get at, Mike.  And in the examples discussed, David had peer pressure to go for it the first time, a more subtle but equally powerful peer pressure to lay up the 2nd time, and then, oh yes David would have some peer pressure to go for it in my 3rd time hypothetical...

That's not ALL that's going on there, however.  I suppose it comes down to what one wants out of golf, but the chance at GLORY is powerful on that tee, and this pressure comes from within... it's pretty easy to remember the pictures in the locker room of the small handful of #16 acemakers and imagine one's own smiling mug on that wall.. also, coming back home after a round at Cypress, the first thing anyone asks is "how you'd do on 16"... man I just can't imagine telling the boys back home all about my courageous layup.  David is a FAR better man than I am in this respect!

TH  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

Tom Huckaby,

To echo your thoughts, the first time I ever stepped to the tee at # 16, the Caddy suggested that I might want to hit a
4-iron, safely to the left.  I responded that I didn't come 3,000 miles to one of the great holes in golf to play safe, and asked for my driver.

It sounds like DM was playing for SCORE.  

[DMoriarty]

Tom said

Tell me you wouldn't trade your tee shot for mine, and if that's the case, I'll let it go, just leaving you in a Goodalian realm of unique contrarianism regarding perhaps the most famous golf hole on this planet.

Tom,
What a simple game golf would be if we could choose our shots and results after our round.  And dull, too.  Of course I would have rather have had your result.  But before I hit, I guess I decided I would rather give myself an outside chance at par, than to hit it into the ocean.

(By the way, we did hit a few experimental shots into the ocean after safely laying up. Lynn got one right in the neck. Mine were wet.)

 

So are you smart or are you dumb?  Or are you smart but did a dumb thing?

Two-words:  PEER PRESSURE ...

On the best hole in the world, the first time you play it, you have no option other than to go for the green.  Now if we all had the opportunity to play the course routinely, then we may learn to be smart and lay-up ...

 
Definitely not smart, but maybe not so dumb either.  The first time, I dont think it was peer pressure.  I played first.  Plus I was so far below the league of the other players that I wasnt too concerned with what they were doing.  

But you might be right, it might be impossible to resist going for it the first time.  But one is supposed to learn a hole over repeated plays, I think.  My first play was a pretty calm day, and on a calm day, it seemed like the right thing to do.  One thing I learned is that going into the ocean over-left is a very easy thing to do.  Still though, I'm not positive it was a terrible play on that particular day, because of the conditions.

So, to you and Tom, I honestly cant say what I would do if I am ever blessed with a third round, no matter with whom I am playing.  A large part of the excitement for me is the anticipation, wondering what option I will if I am ever put on that spot again.  

For all you who already KNOW what you will do, you are missing part of the thrill.  In fact, you might as well be playing some course in Hawaii with a forced carry over the Ocean and no other option. 12 at Manele, for example, forced carry over 200 yds of ocean.  I've played Manele a dozen times or so, and had a few birdies.  But no shot I ever hit there is nearly as memorable as playing safe at Cypress.  And it is a pretty spectacular hole:

[DMoriarty]

It sounds like DM was playing for SCORE.

Don't think I even had a pencil with me.  I could probably recreate my round and come up with a number, but I have absolutely no desire to do so.  It was such a wonderful day,   I don't want to stain its memory with my shoddy score.

I was playing golf, though.  

[Patrick_Mucci_Jr]

DMoriarty,

How can you be sure ?

Did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express the night before ?

[Ron Kern]

Pete Dye designed a lot of his fairways in somewhat of a "V" formation.  The further you went back, the further you had to hit it to get to the wider part of the fairway.  Just think how far they'll have to move those tees back to test the big boys.  That design plays right into their hands.  

e.g. John Daly vs. Crooked Stick

Many moons ago, around 1975, I was playing with Bill Diddel and my father, Gary and on the old 11th at Woodland CC - I got home in two with a Driver and a 5 iron (irrigation was accomplished through the use of large impact sprinklers "plugged" into quick couplers once or twice a week so we did get quite a bit of roll [those were the good ol' days, watering at night for Dwight Ladd, still a friend today - there are stories I could tell...anyhow, returning from memory lane]).

I remember my father and Bill having this conversation (Long Drives - Is there no ARCHITECTURAL defense) even then.  Bill was extremely concerned that there would be no way to substantially defend a golf course against the big hitter.

Talking this week with a teaching pro that works with several tour players - he related the fact that club fitting has become more  than just a simple technical science.  The combination of shaft, head, swingweight, etc. and sophisticated swing analysis and the subsequent swing adjustments thereby gaining the optimum launch angle in combination with the new balls (esp Titleist) is providing tremendous gains in distance.  One of his "students" has gained nearly 30 yards the last two years.  Each manufacturer understands exactly what the combination is for the player to maximize the potential of their products and work very hard for their players to gain that advantage.

This is not going to change.

Now back to lurkerdom.

[Mike_Cirba]

I think David's correct.

Playing CP 16 for the first time, no person on the planet can be forgiven for laying up left.

However, that isn't what we should be judging hole strategies on.

Let's say you're a member there and play it regularly....yes...dream on, right?

But, for discussion purposes, the day David and I played there was a 30 to 40 mph wind quartering into the player from the right side.  The tee shot was hugely intimidating, and the odds of success VERY slim.

Of our group, Huckaby was the only one who pulled it off.  The others were wet or on the beach.  It was about a 1 in 5 shot of surviving for a 5-handicapper...not very good odds.

Given those long odds, if it were my 2nd, or 20th, or 200th round there, I would have gone with my brain and not my ego on that shot and played where Lynn and David did, particularly if a match was on the line.

And I'm not very smart.

[ForkaB]

Ron Kern

Please emerge from lurkerdom more frequently.  It's nice to have some real world anecdotes on this site from time to time.

[THuckaby2]

Mike, please.

I can attest that the thrill does not diminish on the 2nd, 3rd or 4th playing of Cypress as I have been fortunate enough to play there four times.

I'd have to say at SOME POINT, yes, David's "smart play" might come into the thought process.  But that some point to me would come after hundreds of playings, and even then one would have to have some sort of competition going.  I can't even imagine going left to "protect a score"... that's how powerful the lure is on this most famous golf hole.

In any case, it sure as heck wasn't even in my thought process the day we were there.  That wind was quartering from the right, which made it particularly difficult for fader me, as my normal shot shape went right into it, but still, the thought of going left never even entered my mind.   I wouldn't call it a 1 in 5 shot either.. in my mind it was a lot more doable than that... I truly felt if I hit it solidly I'd make the clearing... and come on, each of you guys hit it farther than me... there's no way anyone in our group was laying up, no way.

What would have been interesting to me would have been David's choice had he been with us instead of Lynn.... hmm....

But David himself proves the point - neither he or Lynn could resist trying it... they each backed up the peer pressure issue with those "just for the heck of it" shots after laying up safely left.  If asked by friends at home each of them can still say "yeah, we tried it, it was impossible"... or something to that effect... Shivas is right on re this.  If I try to tell the boys in my normal club that I laid up at Cypress I'd get the same treatment FOREVER that he states.    This is a powerful force... perhaps David doesn't have friends like shivas and I do!

Another interesting example here is the Mad Armenian.  For those who haven't played with him, he's a damn fine player and you DON'T want to face him in a match with anything at stake, but let's just say long carries aren't exactly his forte.  He hits the ball about head height on every shot.... I played CP with him, and that's a shot that's always gonna be damn near impossible for Gib no matter what the conditions are.  That day was dank and cold with a small wind against... Gib's choice?  It wasn't left... I believe he hit 3 shots trying to make the carry, all three were struck solidly and hit the sea wall, but he then picked up and moved on rather than going left.  THAT'S the lure of this golf hole....

In any case in terms of the thrill wearing off, there is a man who could settle this... he's not a member of Cypress, but he has played there MANY times... hopefully Mr. Huntley will see this.

Last I discussed this with Bob, he had only very rarely, if ever, layed up left.

David, once again I get ya re smart play, and shorter players using it to keep up with longer players... heck, in the competitive world that is my standard m.o. as nearly everyone is way longer than me...

Cypress 16 is just a bad example to try and illustrate this.  Oh, the principles are good ones... it's just too famous, too photographed, too everything for one to ever really play "smart" on.

TH

[DMoriarty]

Tom I can assure you that the thrill hadn't worn off for me either.  Unless one is a member, there is always a very good possibility that any round at Cypress will be the last.  (Come to think of it, this might be true of many of the elderly members, as well.)  I assume that for many of you guys, you wouldnt want your LAST attempt at 16 to be a lay-up.

As for whether playing in your group would have made a difference, it is hard to say.   I can say that Lynn's decision did not influence me, that I am aware of.  I think I made the decision to lay up quite a few holes earlier, when my well struck (for me) 3-irons were traveling about 130 yds.  

David, once again I get ya re smart play, and shorter players using it to keep up with longer players... heck, in the competitive world that is my standard m.o. as nearly everyone is way longer than me...

Cypress 16 is just a bad example to try and illustrate this.  Oh, the principles are good ones... it's just too famous, too photographed, too everything for one to ever really play "smart" on.

Tom, I disagree.  Remember this thread is supposed to be about architectural defenses against the long ball.  Seems like we've figured a perfect defense:

Give the long ball hitter a potential thrill fraught with danger, and they will set aside all reason and play right (no pun intended) into the short ball hitter's hands.  I think this still holds, even when the thrill isnt so dramatic as 16. Stand at 10 at Riviera and watch how many of the long hitting pros go directly at the green, good play or not.  

Shivas says that long ball hitters aren't necessarily dumb golfers.  Interesting comment from a guy who pictures himself standing at the 16th in an even match, wind blowing 70 mph, with a driver in his hands.  

[THuckaby2]

David, the point you are missing is that #16 CPC is a bad example because NO MATCH, NO SCORE matters enough to go left there.  Ask Lou Duran, who came to that hole several shots under par his first go 'round... did he go left?  No way.  Yes, on the surface it is a very good example, and you have shivas saying there's no way he'd ever go left... but that's because of the fame of the hole and the peer pressure - it's sure as heck not because of any DESIGN issues.  If this is your best example, then you have a very weak argument, counselor... or do you expect every golf hole like this to be as photographed, famous, widely-discussed as this one?

Re the rest, remember I played the same day as you and went driver-driver to come up 40 yards short on #13 (360 yard hole).  I know the effects of the wind that day.  I hit a 75 yard 6iron that went sideways when the wind got it.  Had 16 been STRAIGHT into that wind, well... I still likely would have tried, but it would have been a what the hell, why not, brainless shot with very little hope of making it, just to avoid the ridicule from friends.  As it was, with the wind quartering, it was difficult but OBVIOUSLY doable - hell I made it, as did a cold, using my driver, playing only 15 and 16 Mike Hendren!

If you seriously made that decision based on earlier shots, then you didn't think this through correctly, my friend.  I know how far you hit the ball.  I know if I can make it, you surely could have.

Re your choices being with Lynn or with us, well... my point is that you had REVERSE peer pressure there, seeing a great, smart player go left... and even then you each still took a whack at it in a what the hell, doesn't count shot... so you deny the allure of the hole?

In any case I consider myself a very smart player - as I say, I have to be when it matters.  I just can't see the result of THAT hole ever mattering enough to make me go left.  You could have me dormie-three and be in the water yourself and I'd still go for that green... no match is important enough to deny oneself a chance at immortality.

Interesting how this again comes down to what one wants out of golf... what jazzes one... you are exhilirated by smartly played shots... yeah, I dig that too when it matters....

Why did it MATTER enough for you to go left?  That's the part of your argument I just don't get.

TH

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Huckaby;

Betcha Lou wishes he went left now!  

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

I wonder... maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.... would a sub-par round be worth the wonder if he could ever make that shot?  At that point a second chance was surely not guaranteed...

I hope he sees this and weighs in himself.

TH