What do you think: Par 4 with short tee shot and long second shot?

[Jerry Kluger]

I played a course yesterday where the second shot on the 18th hole was longer than the tee shot.  Your tee shot is down toward a lake which is about 170 yards straight ahead down the left side of the fairway or around 190 yards down the right side. You then turn 90 degrees left over the lake to an elevated green where the shot plays anywhere from 175 to 200 yards.  I really didn't like it because it gave you no options.  Thoughts?

[JLahrman]

Was your problem more with the short shot-long shot nature of the hole, or with the lack of options?

[Jerry Kluger]

I didn't like the fact that there was no option other than to hit a 5 iron off the tee and then a 4 hybrid over the water to an elevated green.  My instinct tells me that they just wanted to be sure that it wasn't an easy finishing hole.

[JESII]

How 'bout 6 iron - 3 wood?

[Tom_Doak]

I am open to the idea of a hole like that, but I've never seen one I like.

There are a couple of great short par-4's where the best play off the tee is with a 5-iron or even less -- the 9th at Cypress Point and the 7th at Crystal Downs.  But both give you the chance to hit driver if you dare, and neither will require a very long second shot if you hit the tee shot solidly.

[archie_struthers]

 

Really bad design feature IMHO. Played a course in Ocean City Md years ago,where you had to hit seven iron ...four iron!    It was quite bad lol

[Jerry Kluger]

Tom: I guess it can work but I still think it needs an option with a reward for being aggressive.  I really believe in this instance that they felt there was a need for a tough shot into the 18th and this was their solution.

[Ulrich Mayring]

The worst holes in that category are like this one:



These are meters, not yards. Hardly anyone can carry the hazard, so it's an iron, a blind fairway wood and a short iron/wedge.

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Really bad design feature IMHO. Played a course in Ocean City Md years ago,where you had to hit seven iron ...four iron!    It was quite bad lol

Archie,

Doesn't Navesink have a hole like that ?

[archie_struthers]

 

Pat , sorry but never played Navesink.  The hole I mentioned was the last at Eagles Landing in Ocean City Md.  Forced lay up with a difficult 2nd , no where to hit tee shot  .

[Josh Tarble]

I recently played a hole like this I quite liked...#7 at French Lick Donald Ross


From the back tees the safe play is 5-6 iron to the middle that leaves a 4-5 iron from a level lie. The aggressive play is 2 iron to even 3 wood over a bunker that leaves you with an 8-9 iron from a downhill lie. I thought it was an interesting hole to mix it up though.

[David_Elvins]

Surely this is a no-brainer?

Horrible feature with no redeeming qualities. 

[Sam Morrow]

Surely this is a no-brainer?

Horrible feature with no redeeming qualities. 

I've never played one with a good quality. In a tournament I once played a course with a par 5, the tee shot was a 2 iron, second shot seemed to be a mid iron, and the third was a 5 wood. It also had a tiny green surrounded by bunkers.

[Matthew Rose]

There is no type of golf hole that I as a player like less than this one. I don't get it.

If you want to force someone to hit a long club, build a 240 yard par-3 instead.

[Mark Pearce]

Sounds very like the 13th on the Hunting Course at Slaley Hall, which is a candidate (and there are several) for the worst hole on  a bad course.  To make it even worse the second shot there plays uphill.

[Kalen Braley]

Put me in the group of those who despise them as well.

The ones that work IMO are the ones like Tom mentioned, CPC #9, where you can hit it and still have a chance for recovery.

P.S. To me, even worse is the 425 yard par 4, that has a pond right/river/ right in front of the green.  I mean c'mon, thats just brutual.
This is one reason why the Idaho Club is so brutal because it has a few holes like that....

[Brent Hutto]

Does it matter whether you're laying up short of a hazard vs. laying up at the bend of a 90-degree dogleg?

For the life of me I can't remember what course it was on but years ago I played a hole that needed something like 5-iron (150-yard club for me) to keep from running through a dogleg fairway and then from the "elbow" it was a good 200-yards (3-wood, maybe for me) to the green. But there was an option of going either over or curving around the bend to get a shorter second shot.

[JESII]

Hutingdon Valley CC has one on their C-nine and I love it...even though I'm the only one I know who does.

Would these holes be better received if the tee were moved back so the tee shot was slightly longer than the approach?

The one at HVCC has one of the coolest, best long uphill approach shots I've ever seen so I'm willing to hit a 5 iron to get a shot at it...but if the approach shot is mediocre I can imagine it'd be pointless.

[Andy Stamm]

I recently played a hole like this I quite liked...#7 at French Lick Donald Ross


From the back tees the safe play is 5-6 iron to the middle that leaves a 4-5 iron from a level lie. The aggressive play is 2 iron to even 3 wood over a bunker that leaves you with an 8-9 iron from a downhill lie. I thought it was an interesting hole to mix it up though.

And that hole has a great green!

I've never seen anyone hit the 5-6 iron though. I've always seen everyone try to play to the end of the fairway (or option 3 down in the ditch which is just long grass). I guess if you play a big left to right ball, you'd kind of have to lay way back.

[Marty Bonnar]

The worst holes in that category are like this one:



These are meters, not yards. Hardly anyone can carry the hazard, so it's an iron, a blind fairway wood and a short iron/wedge.

Ulrich

Ulrich,
I think your schottenrock must be impeding your swing. 205m is only 225/230yds. Even an old duffer like me can just about make that. Is this hole straight up a berg or something???
tschüß
MB.

[Lester George]

The 90 degree dogleg is the problem for me.  Without it it sounds like you would have an option to drive across the lake.  Is that safe to assume.  Can you put up a graphic?

Lester

[Tom_Doak]

Is this question really just another way of asking whether it's okay to ever "take the driver out of a player's hands" ?

I have heard many good players over the years insist that was a bad thing ... that the best drivers of the ball should ALWAYS have a chance to hit driver, even if the landing area is so narrow or severe that it's a stupid play.  But then they start complaining about how narrow or severe the landing area is and that it's unfair.  It's one of those slippery slopes that eventually lead to declaring that all must be fair in love and golf.

That's why I held out hope that a hole like this could be a good one, even though I don't know if I've ever seen one I thought was good.  [I am familiar with the hole at Huntingdon Valley that Jim Sullivan describes, and thought that one might break the taboo, but I only saw it myself when it was still overgrown with woods.]

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

I honestly didn't interpret it that way.

Its really about being required to layup, usually in some artificial fashion, and then have to hit a 3 iron or longer approach into the green, which 90% of players will miss. 

As opposed to having a hole where the risk is less when taking the safer club, vs the driver....but the choice still lies with the golfer.

[Lester George]

Oh!  The dreaded "taking the driver out of my hands" argument.  Tom, I can hear it in your voice.  We all hate that one.  I have heard it so many times I have spiel that includes "how did I take the driver out of your hands"?  I wasn't even there.

The other part of the discussion is similar to what you said.  It always comes down to the word "I".  Tell them to take the word "I" out of their argument and they can hardly rationalize a discussion.  Like..... "I" lose a competitive advantage if you take the driver out of my hand...or..."I" shouldn't have to lay up or be dictated to where "I" hit the ball...or.."I" can't lay up to that narrow, slopey area because then "I" can't hit it stiff on my next shot....

Nevermind, that one drives me crazy.  I hope this is not where this thread was going which is why I wanted to see a diagram. 

Lester

[Garland Bayley]

Hutingdon Valley CC has one on their C-nine and I love it...even though I'm the only one I know who does.

Would these holes be better received if the tee were moved back so the tee shot was slightly longer than the approach?

The one at HVCC has one of the coolest, best long uphill approach shots I've ever seen so I'm willing to hit a 5 iron to get a shot at it...but if the approach shot is mediocre I can imagine it'd be pointless.

So where's the pond at Huntingdon Valley? If I've found the hole you are referring to, it seems there might be a small stream there.