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Chris_Clouser

Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« on: July 07, 2003, 11:00:41 AM »
I was looking at the Doak Confidential Guide last night and noticed that there were only 12 courses that received 10s on his scale (listed below).  Wouldn't you think there would be a few more or does this sound about right?

Would you consider these courses tens?  What others would be at that level?

Heres the list.

Merion East
Pine Valley
National
Shinnecock
Pinehurst #2
Cypress Pt
Crystal Downs
Ballybunion Old
Royal Dornoch Old
St. Andrews Old
Muirfield
Royal Melbourne (W)

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2003, 11:07:12 AM »
Not a modern course in there??  I'll bet some folks could argue Sand Hills and Pac Dunes are 10s.  Doak himself considers PD a 10.

JC

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2003, 11:07:34 AM »
He also considers Pacific Dunes to be a 10.  He mentioned it briefly about a week ago here, when he rated all of his designs (3 8's and one 4).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 11:07:54 AM by Scott_Burroughs »

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2003, 11:10:34 AM »
Sand Hills was under construction when he saw it for his ranking (a '9', I believe) for TCG, but perhaps if he sees this thread, he may give an updated ranking on the finished product.  Also would be curious his ranking on Friar's Head.

Michael Dugger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2003, 11:23:52 AM »
In a bell distribution there can't be too many at the top.  12 sounds like a fair #.  PD and SH make 14.  Remember Pebble and Augusta get 9's
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Chris_Clouser

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2003, 12:02:09 PM »
Royal County Down and Oakmont were the other two I was thinking and they both got a 9.

From some of Tom's recent comments I wonder if he thinks Crystal is now at about a 9.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 12:04:20 PM by Chris_Clouser »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2003, 12:18:43 PM »
I will give 10's to both Pacific Dunes and Sand Hills whenever The Confidential Guide is published again.  Hopefully there will be some more created in the intervening years, too.

wsmorrison

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2003, 12:27:52 PM »
Shivas,

Is it because you didn't like the burger at the turn?  The course and the food are a 10 to me.  My only complaint would be the 100 or so large moths that shared my cottage.

Regards,
Wayne

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2003, 12:32:38 PM »
DAve, are you throwing out chum on the waters? ;D  Is location your -?  You know some folk would say its' remoteness is their +.  I'd think that a fellow living in Chicago, fighting some of the worst traffic on the planet, with summers of 90*/90%, the remote dry and breezy (albeit hot) sand hills would be an extra charm. :P  Or was it the dining room and menu selection on Ben's porch? ;)

In all honesty, if I were to look for the one negative (purely a personal preference given my playing abilities) I'd want some larger fescue surrounds on some of the green sites.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2003, 12:35:02 PM »
Oh yes Wayne, those moths!  But the gurgle of the Dismal river practically underneath the cabin was a fair tradeoff...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

wsmorrison

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2003, 12:41:08 PM »
Right you are, RJ.  My in-laws are Nebraskans and they told me the Dismal River is the only river in NE that has never run dry.  Don't forget the howling coyotes as well, pretty cool.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2003, 01:51:28 PM »
Shivas,

Just because you can't hit a run up on 1, 4, 11 & 13 the course doesn't deserve a 10? Thats a little harsh. From my photo's & memories I think the only one the fits your description of no run up's is #13. #1 is open, although a little narrow, # 4 is a definite run up, though being uphill is a tougher shot.  You can definetly hit a run up on #11 from the right side. It just will not be your second shot!

You can't hit a run up on #16 @ CPC either, but then again there other options to play that hole :)

Sand Hills is the epitome of a 10. Including the experiance factor it is  second to none.

Hey, but what do I know!
« Last Edit: July 07, 2003, 01:55:08 PM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2003, 02:08:22 PM »
John Foley,

What about the lack of run-up options at # 15 at CPC ?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2003, 02:24:19 PM »
Shivas,

Just trying to defend her. (Can"t believe that Mr. Daley tweaked her!!!). Good call on #17. A run up option would be WAY out of place.

My only critcism would be #1 & #2 are so damn brutal to start off. Wouldn't change it though.

Pat,

Taking the lead from a Doyen I know, I won't comment on CPC #15 since I haven't played there. Seen the pics of #16 so I mentioned it. OOPS, looked like I screwed that one up!

Anyoine else not like the mole?
Integrity in the moment of choice

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2003, 02:35:23 PM »
Shivas,

You picked a heckuva nit to pick. Just to deflect some heat off of you (not that you need any help!), I am on record as being surprised that C & C did not route a true blind hole - such as a dell or sunken green site or Alps hole, particularly given the excellent drainage of the soil at SH and the limited play.  In hindsight, perhaps they showed excellent restraint in not doing so.  

I probably wouldn't know a ten if it sat in my lap, but I'm hard pressed to argue that Sand Hills isn't one.  IMHO, more than any course I've played or walked, the whole there is greater than the sum of the parts. At the same time, recall that of the eight gentlemen in our group, seven different holes (nos. 1, 7, 10, 13, 14, 16, and 17) were listed as personal favorites.  

BTW,  thank you for carrying our team in the nine-hole scramble there.  Do I recall correctly that there were actually FIVE Long Islanders on the team that finished five back?

Regards,

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2003, 02:43:00 PM »
Dave,

TOC #1 has no run-up shot.  Certainly one of many British-Isle holes on great courses w/o a run-up shot.

Question about those aerial greens at SH, are they big/long?

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2003, 02:47:00 PM »
Mike,

I think you've hit on one interesting factor/indicia of a great course--the vast number of "favourite holes"! As I recall our "Sand Hills Gang" also had a variety of favourite holes, and mine wasn't on the list you guys had (it is the eighth).

All The Best,
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2003, 03:06:57 PM »
Are any of those holes downwind with the prevailing wind?  If not, then that could have been a determining factor.  Also, are the approach shots pitching wedges/short irons coming in?

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2003, 03:24:02 PM »
Shivas,

I also loved #13. The great thing about it was how much room their was long. Especially being downwind. As I recall being uphill & downwind it played shorter than it's listed yardage which I think is around 190.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Doug Wright

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2003, 03:29:19 PM »
Scott,

Here's what I recall but I could be wrong esp regarding the wind, which I don't think was "prevailing" when I was there. I think someone said prevailing is from the south.

Hole #1 is a par 5 and I think with prevailing wind and a short third uphill to great greensite in a saddle.

I think you can run the ball into #4--long to mid iron downhill into prevailing wind--as long as you miss death bunker left. There's a generous chipping area greenside right.

Hole #11, medium iron cross-wind.

Hole #13, medium/long iron cross-wind.

I think the compelling greensites trumped all other considerations at SH, though some have questioned the #4 greensite as not on a par with the others.

All The Best,

Twitter: @Deneuchre

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2003, 03:53:58 PM »
Shivas,

# 3, # 6, # 8, # 17 at NGLA don't have run up options either.

I think there has to be some demand to test the golfer's ability to execute an aerial approach at any golf course in order for that course to be considered great for every level of golfer.

Neil Regan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2003, 04:10:01 PM »
"there is no realistic run-up option into #1, 4, 11 and 13? ...these holes require purely aerial approaches....in theory you can run it into 1, 4, and 11.  In theory.  But in reality, those aren't realistic options"

Shivas,
  With all due respect to you, I think you are mistaken. The 1st, 4th, and 11th actually are often very difficult to hold from the air in common winds.
  1st : if you are attempting to reach in 2, with let's say a 4-iron, you might find that it's best to hit ground a few yards short of the green. Perhaps not quite a run-up, but not aerial either. If it's your third from short yardage, a putt or run-up is to me a far better choice than landing on the green.
  4th: Whether into a wind or downwind, a low bouncer is always a good option. And if it's your 3rd from the right, then like with Ballybunion #6 and Dornoch #6, a putt will win closest to the pin.
  11th: From medium range, c150 yards, a high shot might seem to be the best, but not only choice. From short range, as John Foley says, "You can definetly hit a run up on #11 from the right side. It just will not be your second shot!" But John is slightly wrong. I have more than several times seen a 2nd shot from very close. Perhaps John meant it just won't be YOUR second shot.  :)
  13th: Even the 13th, if heavily downwind, might best be played by landing just short with a bounce. A shot that hits the green very often goes over the back.

  Run-up shots on hilly courses often require a medium trajectory with just one or two bounces, and very often the shape of the shot will tell it's fate. Tommy N. recently saw, and commented on, Winged Foot East #17 as a classic run-up shot, and he's right. A very good option there is a low draw to a doubly-canted fairway (on a par-3 !) that first feeds the ball left towards the green, then turns it back right and up onto the putting surface. A fade won't work, nor will a medium-high draw that carries too far.
  Sand Hills abounds with such shots.

neil

Grass speed  <>  Green Speed

Brad Swanson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2003, 04:22:22 PM »
Shivas,
   I'm with you about #13 being my favorite hole, maybe because it was so tough.  Our gang played it with a 2-3 club gale helping and from the left on the first round, wth the pin tucked behind the trap left, I hit what I thought was a perfect shot to only be greeted with a dicey chip from behind the green.  With the L to R slope of the run-up of that green, the green was nearly impossible to hit, even if you tried to run it up.
   

Cheers,
Brad Swanson

larry_munger

Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2003, 08:47:17 PM »
how many and which are the Doak 9's.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Perfect 10s, do they exist?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2003, 11:10:37 PM »
I found number 13 at SH one of the most difficult holes I have ever played.  Not only is it up hill with the prevailing wind, the firm green, as I recall slopes away from the tee.  I played it six times, hit at least twenty shots (some of them even hit like I wanted) and ran off the back of the green almost every time.  Bill Coore was at Sand Hills when I was there, playing with Mr. Youngscap  (sp?).  I asked him what kind of shot he envisioned when the hole was designed.  His reply was simply, "Well Tom, we just cleaared away the brush, and threw some grass seed down."  I loved it.  Play it as it lies Tommy! The redeeming part of the hole is that there is plenty of room over the green and par is possible with a relatively easy chip and putt.  I can't wait to go back and tackle it again.  Maybe ;D
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi