News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« on: September 18, 2012, 04:54:11 PM »
Niall said something interesting on the Trump thread, (which I'm guessing by now most are ignoring/no longer following):

Quote
Having played Castle Stuart the day before with its stage managed vistas, it was actually quite refreshing to play a new course where there appeared to be no thought about either internal or external views when laying out the course.

I'm trying to decide if Niall really meant that as a compliment to the Trump Links course or not?

Perhaps I'm naive, but are there really any courses out there that are designed, without at least a few passing thoughts on the various vistas being afforded by the site at certain points?  And then the routing not altered or at least attempted to take advantage of those?

And on a secondary note, do "stage managed vistas" leave a sour note in other people's mouth?  Many of the golf courses I play here in Spokane don't really have a good opportunity to showcase a good view, so I certainly appreciate the ones that do, even if it is "staged".

Discuss.

Edit:  Updated staged to stage...unintentional typo.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 05:00:38 PM by Kalen Braley »

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2012, 04:59:02 PM »
Stage managed and staged managed are different IMO

I'd prefer the stage not be contrived

If the hole is great, it would be better with a nicer view.
i.e. If I could make an equally great hole playing away or towards the sea, I'd prefer the sea.

Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2012, 05:24:51 PM »
A course I really like has a tee with a nice bench and a beautiful view down to the sea on a cliff side hole. But the original tee by a notable designer makes a better hole (and is still there), I think. Plus the original tee is a shorter walk for the golfer. In discussing with someone at the club why the new tee was preferred, I was told that it was created/used because of the sea view and the fact that raters specifically commented about wanting more sea views. I was told that the course ranking had indeed improved with the implementation of the new tee. I was disappointed and worried that the course would give up its excellent heritage/pedigree so easily.

Anyway, I definitely thought that this vista was staged, and I didn't like it.

Carl Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2012, 05:40:27 PM »
. . . If the hole is great, it would be better with a nicer view. . . .

My sentiment, too.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2012, 05:50:54 PM »
If you have the opportunity to present a wonderful vista to the golfer, one that would leave a lasting impression on them, why would you not incorporate it into the design of a golf hole by siting a tee or green to take advantage of it?

TK

Peter Pallotta

Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2012, 07:54:50 PM »
Kalen - good topic. I was thinking the other day that great architects/courses can wow us without us realizing it, i.e. they present vistas that work on us almost unconsciously, such that we are impressed and moved by the setting without stopping to consider whether or not it has been created/manipulated/staged. When it works, it seems like magic. As I often do, I'm thinking of some of Sean Arble's "tier two" English courses, where before you know it and seemingly without anyone having 'designed' it this way, you're standing there looking over an expanse of gently rolling countryside, with a 500 year old church steeple of hand-cut stones in the distance and, way off, perhaps, a shimmering line of blue that marks where the land and the sea merge into one.

Peter  
« Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 09:10:04 PM by PPallotta »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2012, 01:56:59 AM »
If you have the opportunity to present a wonderful vista to the golfer, one that would leave a lasting impression on them, why would you not incorporate it into the design of a golf hole by siting a tee or green to take advantage of it?

TK

Vistas are wonderful because they impart a sense of joy to be alive, but unless on an outstanding property sometimes archies are in a rush to blow us away.  This can sometimes result repetitive downhill drives and/or too many long walks to high tees.  I think it is important to remember that to golfers courses are inherently beautiful and so full advantage of "interior" views should be taken.  This is a huge trick that clubs often don't get.  I also think "interior" views could be helpful to archies to offer that sense of joy to be alive while perhaps not having to sacrifice the quality of the course for it.  A great example of this Merion; Old Town as well. 

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2012, 08:46:18 AM »
Capilano is an example of a great course made even better by Stanley Thompson's attention to detail and routing genius.  Several downhill front nine holes frame spectacular views of Vancouver Harbor, the long par 4s 15 and 17 frame vistas of distant mountain peaks.  By accident?   I don't think so. 

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2012, 01:20:56 PM »
Great comments so far....

I'm also interested in hearing from the architects in the treehouse if you ever:

A) designed a course and came back 4-5 years later when it had matured and noticed a few views/vistas that happened by accident that you weren't intentionally thinking of.

Or

B)  A few of the viewpoint you put in didn't seem to work out quite as well as you hoped.


P.S.  An informal poll to all.  Would you much rather have the best routing if it meant forgoing a few "views"....or would you rather have the architect take you out to a place for a tee box or otherwise, even if it wasn't "necessary" to take advantage of a view?

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2012, 01:28:29 PM »
I'm betting most vistas are serendipitous.

Example - at my course, French Creek, the 14th tee has a skyline fairway due west through a chute of trees.  The hole itself goes out 230 yards or so before heading left to its green. 

But, about 3/4 mile to the west is the 1st green, and it's perfectly in line with the 14th fairway.   The land between the end of the 14th fairway and the 1st tee is mostly native and is down in a shallow valley.

The view, however, is very cool from the 14th tee.

According to Gil Hanse, they didn't plan it that way at all.  It just kind of appeared when they cleared the trees up on the 14th hole.

Planned or not, it's very cool.

This picture from Joe Bausch shows the view from the end of 14.  You can see the 1st hole in the distance at about 1 o'clock (it's right at 12 o'clock from the 14th tee).  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FrenchCreek/pages/page_131.html?

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2012, 01:36:55 PM »
Great comments so far....

I'm also interested in hearing from the architects in the treehouse if you ever:

A) designed a course and came back 4-5 years later when it had matured and noticed a few views/vistas that happened by accident that you weren't intentionally thinking of.

Or

B)  A few of the viewpoint you put in didn't seem to work out quite as well as you hoped.


P.S.  An informal poll to all.  Would you much rather have the best routing if it meant forgoing a few "views"....or would you rather have the architect take you out to a place for a tee box or otherwise, even if it wasn't "necessary" to take advantage of a view?

Kalen,

Something I forgot to add to my post above, but I don't think I would create a disjointed routing or awkward hole in order to take advantage of a great vista - remember, the point of designing a golf course is to create an enjoyable golf experience. Golfers won't give you credit for the beautiful view, but they will tar & feather you for a poor golf hole.

TK

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2012, 01:43:46 PM »
Tyler agreed,

But the disconnect is, today's golfers judge "a good hole" on very different criteria than we often do here at GCA.com.

Every golfer I play with loves the elevated tee shot and can't get enough of em, even if the architect goes out of his way to make them, when the hole would be just as good as otherwise from a non-elevated one.

P.S. I've only had one regular Non-GCA golfing buddy who doesn't absolutely love water on the course in all its forms...even when its tacky artificial ponds and the like.  They just eat that stuff up, and it makes me want to hurl when done in artificial fashion.  When it comes to going 40 or 50 yards out of your way for a nice view, I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that the vast vast majority of golfers think its totally worth it.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2012, 07:18:33 PM »

Every golfer I play with loves the elevated tee shot and can't get enough of em, even if the architect goes out of his way to make them, when the hole would be just as good as otherwise from a non-elevated one.


I had this conversation with Mike Keiser more than once when we were in the planning stages for Pacific Dunes.  I was concerned that he sounded like he wanted as many elevated tees as possible, no matter how bad it makes the walk ... as some people have commented about a couple of the holes on the new Trump course in Aberdeen.

However, having the conversation in abstract does not do it justice.  When it came time to decide on the final routing and where all the tees would go, the views and the walk and all other aspects were put in their proper place ... we were both worried about the golf course as a whole.  You don't neglect the golf for the views, or the views for the golf.  You figure out a way to make them work together.

Similarly, when Josie Robertson said that our back tee for the 16th tee at Cape Kidnappers was a beautiful spot, and she thought that all the golfers ought to get out to enjoy it, we found a way to make that work, even though it required quite a bit more earthmoving to make the 16th fairway work for everybody from back there.  Because she was right.  It makes no sense to reserve the best views for the back tee players.  They're probably the least likely players to notice.

Andy Stamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2012, 12:30:48 AM »
For the poll, I would undoubtably take a better hole of a better view.

What I seem to notice is that I'm made to walk further out of my way to get to the scenic view tee, a trade that I don't particularly like. I like tees to be close to greens and on the way to the next hole. A view isn't a great reason for a significant detour, for me.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2012, 02:15:16 AM »
But archies get around the sacrifice of golf for views by using safety as the angle.  It wasn't until a few years ago that I realized golf was so dangerous - I rushed out and bought special super duper golf insurance.

Ciao 
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2012, 08:06:03 AM »
But archies get around the sacrifice of golf for views by using safety as the angle. 


Sean:

Some do, some don't.

However, it is a real issue that when you are designing a course where golf carts will be prominent, it sometimes trips up the best solution for laying out the green and tee combination for walkers, because there would be no place for the carts to go.  That is why I hate to have to accommodate golf carts ... and quite likely another reason that some of my best courses (Pacific Dunes, Barnbougle, etc.) are the ones where we didn't have to worry about carts.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2012, 09:21:13 AM »
Sean,

I think all archies are aware that there have been a few plunges off the 18th fw at Pebble Beach.  I don't recall anyone ever suing them over it.  At some lesser course, who knows, but I would think that most juries would understand that its inherent.  I mean, it would be hard for a golfer or cart driver to say he didn't notice an entire ocean!

On Golf's Grand Design, they feature DMKidd at BD, and he says when he saw that ocean front stretch of land he "knew" he had to use it for a golf hole.  Pretty much a no brainer. 

As to elevated tees, its always a good easy solution, but there are other ways to create a nice golf hole, even near an ocean or vista.  Nothing wrong with a tee tucked in beside a landform to conceal the view and then reveal it at some point.  Sometimes, that works better than just letting them see it all the time.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2012, 12:40:20 PM »
Tom,

This might be the best nugget of this thread so far, seems to make the best sense:

You don't neglect the golf for the views, or the views for the golf.  You figure out a way to make them work together.

However, has there been cases where you had to sacrifice one over another because it just couldn't work?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2012, 07:37:10 AM »
But archies get around the sacrifice of golf for views by using safety as the angle.  It wasn't until a few years ago that I realized golf was so dangerous - I rushed out and bought special super duper golf insurance.

Ciao 

Sean

I suspect that might have been after a round at Painswick !

Jeff

Perhaps it wasn't the ocean that was dangerous but the cunning way some golf course architect disguised exactly where the cliff edge was, or even the owners failing to point out the danger. Negligence by neglect if you will.

With regards to Kidd, its one thing to plunk a golf hole down by the ocean/body of water, and another presenting a view to the golfer (as I'm sure you know). Troon has great views, Lossiemouth has outstanding views, if you take the time to look around. Castle Stuart's views aren't nearly as good (IMHO) but the difference is at Castle Stuart they have gone to a lot of effort to ensure that the golfer is presented with different views as backdrops to infinity greens and such like. They do it fantastically well, however a good view doesn't make up for a shortfall in the quality of the golf (general comment and NOT a specific comment on CS).

Kalen's OP references the differences I found between CS and Trump, which were very noticeable playing one after the other. At Trump, most of the views are internal and I would judge there was no real concern to create views, they mostly just "happened". A case in point being the the walk between the 17th green and the 18th tee that runs behind the par 3 13th (?) green. The green is situated benched into the dunes used for the elevated tees for 14 and 18. A tremendous backdrop you would think, however somewhat spoiled by glimpses of footpaths and golfers walking behind the green. Luckily I'm Scottish and immune to all that scenic view nonsense  ;)

Niall

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2012, 09:05:34 AM »
TD says:

"It makes no sense to reserve the best views for the back tee players.  They're probably the least likely players to notice."

Exactly so.

Bob

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2012, 10:20:46 AM »
Tom,

This might be the best nugget of this thread so far, seems to make the best sense:

You don't neglect the golf for the views, or the views for the golf.  You figure out a way to make them work together.

However, has there been cases where you had to sacrifice one over another because it just couldn't work?


Sure, it rarely all works out perfectly.  But of course I wouldn't identify such a "weakness", because most people probably don't notice anyway.

One which some people HAVE noticed is the walk from 11 green to 12 tee at Pacific Dunes.  It's not ideal, but two difficult crossovers had to happen if we were going to get the eleventh and thirteenth holes playing to the north and the fourth hole playing to the south [which WAS the ideal].  The crossovers necessitated a couple of pretty long walks.

The walk from #3 green to #4 is actually just as long as from #11 to #12, but nobody ever bashes it, because the halfway house breaks it up and because it's the first time you get to walk along the ocean and you are so mesmerized that you don't care if it's a long walk.  The same is true from #15 to #16 at Cypress Point.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2012, 11:50:48 AM »
Nice thread. It strikes me that we talk a lot about "views" but not enough about "place" - a simple sense of place, an honouring and celebrating of its own unique qualities and features.  It seems to me that this is what those old architects of the tier two English courses did so well, i.e. they draped a golf course gently over a place, never obscuring and in fact often highlighting its qualities -- a comfortable wool blanket over an sturdy leather club chair. I'd bet that if architects focused on respecting the "place" -- i.e. by not moving much earth, but blending fairways and hazards into existing/natural features and vegetation -- the golfer would be very happy, and the "views" (such as they are, unque to that place) would take care of themselves.  That way, place would actually mean something -- a Philly course would offer what a Boston course didn't, and vice-versa, and London would not be new York and Mexico would not be Canada etc. Otherwise you get the feeling you're driving on an interstate across the country, when because the chains and stores are hotels are all the same, I can't tell if I'm in Altamont or Atlanta, North Carloina or Nevada. 

Peter

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2012, 12:07:14 PM »
Nice thread. It strikes me that we talk a lot about "views" but not enough about "place" - a simple sense of place, an honouring and celebrating of its own unique qualities and features.  It seems to me that this is what those old architects of the tier two English courses did so well, i.e. they draped a golf course gently over a place, never obscuring and in fact often highlighting its qualities -- a comfortable wool blanket over an sturdy leather club chair. I'd bet that if architects focused on respecting the "place" -- i.e. by not moving much earth, but blending fairways and hazards into existing/natural features and vegetation -- the golfer would be very happy, and the "views" (such as they are, unque to that place) would take care of themselves.  That way, place would actually mean something -- a Philly course would offer what a Boston course didn't, and vice-versa, and London would not be new York and Mexico would not be Canada etc. Otherwise you get the feeling you're driving on an interstate across the country, when because the chains and stores are hotels are all the same, I can't tell if I'm in Altamont or Atlanta, North Carloina or Nevada. 

Peter

Exactly!

In school, one of my professors talked incessantly about a "sense of place", and it took me a while to understand what he meant as it concerned golf, because so many modern courses just created their own reality.  But the old courses used whatever the site had, and whatever the site had makes them unique. 

Vegetation is a big part of that, whether it's trees or native ground cover or whatever.  [It's why Westchester County's parkland courses and London's heathland courses are so special.]  That is one of the reasons I think twice when people here talk about cutting down trees to open up a course.  If the trees are native to the site, they add a sense of place.  It's only the trees that were planted in the 1950's to make every course look alike, that need to go.

The most underrated aspect of the great site we had to work at for Pacific Dunes [and at Bandon Trails] was the great mix of vegetation -- gorse, shore pines, and beach grasses.  It added color and texture to the place that takes GENERATIONS to add after the fact to a blank-slate site.  And we were very careful to leave as much of it as we could.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2012, 02:28:42 PM »
Pietro

I guess that was my point.  A well routed course on mediocre land can be a thing of beauty in itself.  Which is why I hammer on about "internal" views all the time.  While it is understandable to take advantage of views, it shouldn't have to be a priority.  As you say, a well routed course offers  visual rewards in many guises. 

Everyone gushed of the pix of Sunny Old.  It wasn't rocket science which produced that course and more especially the walk.  It was keen awareness of the surroundings and environment.  Perhaps this is something the heathland courses offer more of as a group than any other type of course.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

SL_Solow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Vistas on the course...staged or not?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2012, 03:39:57 PM »
It seems to me that the best vistas seem to come from the routing, as opposed to those where the routing appears to be forced to create the views.   For example, Thompson's use of the spectacular settings at Banff incorporated the shaping of features which  serve to both complement and accectuate the rugged mountain backdrop and whichy seem to grow naturally as the course follows corridors which make for an appealing walk.  I contrast that with some Arizona desert courses where on numerous occasions tees, hazards, greens and distant peaks appear to miraculously line up on a regular basis.  After awhile, it beomes too pat and an obvious conceit of the designer.  As for the remarks about internal views and preservation of the character of a site, assuming there is something worth preserving, I am in total agreement.  Not every course can be a links nor should one try to force a links on to property ill suited for that model.