How difficult is Sebonack with very firm greens at 13.5 in 25 mph winds, and

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat - in the UK we tend to stump up a greenfee and not have to rely on a millionaire host to get us on the course.

First, Sebonack isn't in the UK.
Second, the acquisition and construction costs of most courses in the UK were repaid 50 to 100 years ago and were minimal when compared to the recent acquisition and construction costs necessary to create Sebonack.
Your comparison indicates an ignorance of the facts and modern realities.

The womens open was delayed because of a storm with gusts reaching 60mph, that's not a regular summertime experience.
25mph winds in coast areas are common and to be expected.

That's not true, 25 mph winds at Sebonack aren't common.

If balls start moving around within the normal parameters of weather the greens are too quick and/or slopey.

I've seen that at TOC and other UK venues so I'm not so sure I'd agree with you.

As to the greens at Sebonack, I believe that they're too severe for stimp speeds above the 10-11 mark and that a number of them need to be modified.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I'm sure you've played the course both before and after the changes that have been made.  How would you grade the work that has been done to date?

Kyle,

While I was originally opposed to moving and changing the 16th green, I think the change may have improved the hole, especially in the area of challenge.

The 14th green is another matter.

It was moved back and a two tier green constructed.
I think the upper shelf is too narrow and that the front right quadrant unfairly sloped, such that well struck shots will run back down the green, down the fairway, leaving a very difficult recovery.  Given the fairway bunkering scheme/location I think the front right needs to be elevated and the back shelf extended.

The second green is very, very, very difficult and I believe it may be # 1 or # 3 handicap hole.
The hole locations are VERY difficult to get to.

[Tom_Doak]

I won't get into this theoretical discussion about the severity of the greens and who is happy or unhappy with them.  I haven't been back to Sebonack since the new 14th green was constructed, although I am taking a couple of friends there in October, and will get to see it then.

Some of the greens are very severe.  A lot of that was at my impetus, and some was not, but all three of us (Jack, Michael, and myself) signed off on every green that's in the ground, except for #16 and #14 which have been changed.  Regardless of what anyone thinks about them, the greens you see now are the ones they'll play for the U.S. Women's Open next summer ... there is no time to change them now. 

If I was handed control of the set-up, I guarantee you I could make Sebonack play properly for any event you wanted to play there.  But, since neither the owner nor the USGA give the co-architect any role in course set-up, whatever happens next summer is on them.  I'll have my fingers and toes crossed that they do a good job of highlighting the interest of the course, instead of overriding it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

I think the USGA will do a good job.

The 7th hole at Shinnecock is probably less than a mile away from Sebonack.

# 2 green offers some unique approaches.
One day, the hole was cut back-left and my partner hit an approach left of the flag that ended up in the lower right bowl.
The next day the hole was cut in the lower right bowl and he ended up on the back left shelf.
He two putted from the lower bowl to the upper shelf, but putted into the front right bunker from the back left shelf.

The golf course is very generous off the tee, which accomodates higher wind velocities quite well.

How many acres is under mowers ?

I believe that they've changed the order of play for the tournament with # 2 being # 1 and # 1 being # 9.

With respect to # 1, I was curious as to why the green wasn't offset, closer to the bay, as it seems to be on # 19.
There's another 15 or so yards to work with directly north.
Not that the 1st green needs additional difficulty, but, I like the concept of a dire consequence on a relatively short shot, ala # 18 green at NGLA.

The condition of the course was terrific.

What grass did you use for the fairways ?

[Tom_Doak]

With respect to # 1, I was curious as to why the green wasn't offset, closer to the bay, as it seems to be on # 19.
There's another 15 or so yards to work with directly north.
Not that the 1st green needs additional difficulty, but, I like the concept of a dire consequence on a relatively short shot, ala # 18 green at NGLA.

The condition of the course was terrific.

What grass did you use for the fairways ?

Patrick:

The back of #1 green is right up against the 100-foot setback line (measured from the beach below) that we weren't allowed to work in.  The top of the bluff was closer there, than it was by #19.  And rules are rules, in the environmental buffer world.

The grass on the fairways is a mixture of Colonial bentgrass and fescue, but the Colonial bent has dominated there from the beginning.

I have heard that they were going to start the tournament on #2 ... which was certainly not what we had in mind when we were working on it.  They'd better be fully engaged to play that one as the opening hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom,

Understood on # 1.

Not being familiar with the DEP rules, does that mean that you can't maintain the area behind the 1st green as fairway or first cut and have to leave it as rough ?

If it was fairway or first cut, that would be a really scarey and daunting approach, even from less than 100 yards.

I can see # 2 ruining many a round if that's the first hole you encounter.
Depending on the wind, that hole can be exceptionally difficult.
I even thought about driving it down the 18th fairway.
Were those two terrific tees left there to prevent that and to also buffer # 2 from # 18 fairway ?

Why do you think that the Colonial Bent outcompeted the Fescue ?

[Jud_T]

Comments were made that those greens should never go above 10-11 on the Stimp, and I tend to agree with that.

So apparently the greens are being changed solely based of improving the architecture for the enjoyment of the membership, and the concomitant increase in green speeds is purely coincidental.

[Ben Sims]

13.5 stimp and 25mph winds at Sebonack isn't golf.  It's listening to a Rudyard Kipling poem over and over while being dunked underwater and asked "what is your next target?"  I honestly can't imagine those greens rolling that quickly and with that sort of wind.  The margin for error must have been ridiculously thin.  It is without question the most difficult course I have ever played from 40 yds and in.  

The women don't have the shots to deal with that level of climactic and agronomic difficulty.  As good as they are, they don't hit delicate flops and chips with the all the fancy spin control like the men.  

The fallacy is--of course--that a course like Sebonack needs to have 13ft on a stimpmeter.  It would play perfectly at 10 and would have more pins available in tough climactic conditions.  Heck, we all had our hands plenty full at the 10ft or so they played when I was there..  Also, I'll say it once and I'll say it again.  The best putters are the ones that putt well on slower greens with slope.  Not flatter greens with speed.  

Sebonack's agronomic conditions are proof that conspicuous consumption--in this case over-the-top conditioning--can adversely affect great golf holes. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Comments were made that those greens should never go above 10-11 on the Stimp, and I tend to agree with that.

So apparently the greens are being changed solely based of improving the architecture for the enjoyment of the membership, and the concomitant increase in green speeds is purely coincidental.

Jud,

The increase in green speeds isn't purely coincidental, unless you think that winter follows summer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

13.5 stimp and 25mph winds at Sebonack isn't golf.  It's listening to a Rudyard Kipling poem over and over while being dunked underwater and asked "what is your next target?"  I honestly can't imagine those greens rolling that quickly and with that sort of wind.  The margin for error must have been ridiculously thin.  It is without question the most difficult course I have ever played from 40 yds and in.

Ben,

Strangely enough, it was golf and it was fun and they had the holes in some very difficult locations, and...... this was a competition, so every shot counted.

Now, a medal play round, or four of them are another matter.
At 13.5 and firm, with a good one to two club breeze, I can set the course up to produce a 300+ winner or an even par winner, depending upon length and hole locations.

Although, it's tough to imagine benign hole locations for four days on # 1, # 2, # 7, # 12, 14 and # 17..  

The women don't have the shots to deal with that level of climactic and agronomic difficulty.  
As good as they are, they don't hit delicate flops and chips with the all the fancy spin control like the men.  

My experience was that it was very, very difficult to get effective spin from in close.
The greens, inherently, are difficult, and, when they're firmed and sped up, exponentially more difficult.

For a medal play tournament, I could make the course such that 300+ would be the winning score if there was just a one or two club breeze.

I think the neat thing about Sebonack is the generous width and bunkering.
But, as you approach the green, you'd better be properly positioned, sharp with your approach and a wizard at recovery and putting.
It's really quite a difficult medal play test.

At match play, it was fun......... well, mostly fun.

The fallacy is--of course--that a course like Sebonack needs to have 13ft on a stimpmeter.  It would play perfectly at 10 and would have more pins available in tough climactic conditions.  Heck, we all had our hands plenty full at the 10ft or so they played when I was there..  Also, I'll say it once and I'll say it again.  The best putters are the ones that putt well on slower greens with slope.  Not flatter greens with speed.

What about contoured greens with speed ?

The consensus at the event seemed to be that 10-11 would present more than an adequate challenge when the greens were firm. 

Sebonack's agronomic conditions are proof that conspicuous consumption--in this case over-the-top conditioning--can adversely affect great golf holes. 

I"m beginning to disagree with that.
Why wouldn't you want healthy, tight fairways to have your ball roll out and to approach from ?

Why wouldn't you want firm, fast greens ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Since you may be the only one here that has played Sebonack in these conditions, can you give some specifics about pin placements, and putting on the greens?

Keith,

1   On the ridge/spine one day, over the ridge on the right the next I was lucky to two putt both days.
2   On the upper left shelf one day in the lower right bowl the next.  My partner putted into the lower right bunker from just off the upper left.
3   On the right both days, far left the practice round.  I birdied the first day, parred the second.
4   On the front left and back left.  Deceptively huge green.  Two putted, luckily, both days.
5   On the left side both days & behind the bunker on the practice round
6   Front left and back right
7   Front and back
8   Front Next to the water and back left
9   front left and back behind the bunker
10 Frontish and back right
11 center and back right
12 Front center and back right
13 front left and center right
14 back right and front right
15 front right and center left
16 front center and back right
17 back left and front left
18 front left and back left

Some of the practice round locations were also interesting.

The hole locations certainly keep you on your toes.

If you miss the proper side of the green, unless you're Houdini, you're going to take a few shots to get in the hole.

[Ben Sims]

Patrick,

I guess sometimes a little torture can be fun.     But a 300+ for a four round tournament is masochistic. 

Sebonack certainly must be one of the more unique golf courses built in the past 20 years.  It's a very different combination that leads to difficulty.  Whereas the equation for difficulty for major championships in the past has seen narrowing of fairways and lengthening of rough, Sebonack breaks that mold and shows that a golf course can be defending brutally at the green even with wide fairways.  Wouldn't you agree?

As an aside I knew you would disagree with my last sentence or two.  But here's the rub.  Is Sebonack a better golf course at 13ft greens or 10ft greens?  I don't disagree with your premise on fairways, but on the greens, there is a clear point of diminishing returns with regard to green speed.

[Greg Chambers]

I'm still trying to figure out how a ball rolling on a green stimping "13.5" while the wind is blowing 25 mph stops, anywhere, unless it hits the hole or the collar.  Are you sure the greens were really rolling "13.5"?

[Scott Warren]

Is there a tournament golf course that isn't insanely difficult in that wind and with greens rolling at those speeds?

[Keith OHalloran]

Thanks Pat,
They can definitely find some difficult pins out there, and putts like your partner had on 2 will not be uncommon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

I guess sometimes a little torture can be fun.     But a 300+ for a four round tournament is masochistic. 

Neither the USGA nor the TV network wants that result.
I'm just saying that I could set the course up to produce that score if Mother Nature co-operated

Sebonack certainly must be one of the more unique golf courses built in the past 20 years.  It's a very different combination that leads to difficulty.  Whereas the equation for difficulty for major championships in the past has seen narrowing of fairways and lengthening of rough, Sebonack breaks that mold and shows that a golf course can be defending brutally at the green even with wide fairways.  Wouldn't you agree?

Absolutely.

It's a welcome relief.

When Newport narrowed their fairways for the Women's Open, I don't believe that they were returned to their pre-Open widths, which is a shame.

As an aside I knew you would disagree with my last sentence or two.  But here's the rub. 

 Is Sebonack a better golf course at 13ft greens or 10ft greens? 

For whom ?

Member-Guest competitors or the best women golfers in the world ?

The second question is:  for entertainment or competition ?

I don't disagree with your premise on fairways, but on the greens, there is a clear point of diminishing returns with regard to green speed.
I'm biased, I want to see them at the same speed I played them this past weekend.
If mid to high handicaps navigated them, I want to see how the best women golfers in the world navigate them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm still trying to figure out how a ball rolling on a green stimping "13.5" while the wind is blowing 25 mph stops, anywhere, unless it hits the hole or the collar. 

On the 8th hole, the pin was cut on the lower level, but I had hit my approach on the upper level.
Had I putted on the line necessary to make the putt, my ball would have rolled off the green and into the water coming off that slope.
Instead, I putted away from the hole leaving myself a 15 footer for par.  My opponents were going to bogey the hole, so while I wanted to make my putt, I wanted to leave a tap in should I miss it.  I hit the putt what I thought was lightly.  If it hadn't hit the hole dead center it would have gone 8-10 feet past the hole.

On #'s 12 and 13 I had 10 foot birdie putts that I just touched.
I commented that I was putting defensively on relatively short birdie putts.
The one that really fooled me was on # 10 where I had a 6 foot birdie putt.
Our opponents conceded the putt.
When I tried to make it, i was shocked to see the ball go 6 feet past the cup.

Sometimes it was difficult to determine if you were uphill or downhill or flat.

On 18 I had a 15 foot birdie putt and the caddy told me I was slightly uphill.
I knocked it 8 feet past the hole and missed the next putt.

I think I could adapt to those speeds, but, I'd have to spend some extra time there, that's why I stated that I believe the winner will need to get there early and often.

Are you sure the greens were really rolling "13.5"?

That's the speed the Pro announced at the start of play on Friday based on what Garrett, the Super had informed him.

I don't recall leaving any putts short.