Dormie Club: What did I miss?

[Jason Thurman]

After playing Dormie Club on Wednesday, I've gotta say that I was a bit disappointed. Obviously it's a very good golf course. Aesthetically, it matches anything I've ever played. The setting is fantastic and the terrain dramatic.

At the end of the day, though, it just didn't really excite me. To compare it to a course with a fairly similar aesthetic, I'd split 10 plays with The Prairie Club Pines 7-3 over in favor of Graham Marsh's sometimes frowned upon Nebraska course.

The problem for me is on several levels:

1. It felt like the course was more about aesthetics than playing qualities. I don't see the risk/reward or options that I see in so many other courses. Sure there are some good risk/reward holes like 2 and 11, but there seemed to be a lot more holes with either a dictated shot (like the hook tee shot on eight) or with very little strategy (6, 10, 15).

2. It got pretty "sloggish" on the back nine. 10 just seemed excessively meandering, and the following three holes just didn't turn me on much. Part of this is the result of much of the back nine playing into the wind on my visit, but I also just didn't see a wealth of interesting shots.

3. It has so much width in spots without strategy that it becomes difficult to choose a line. I prefer courses with more purpose-filled shots. I felt like Dormie had more shots where the play is just to hit the ball pretty far and somewhere in the fairway.

Don't get me wrong. Dormie Club is a very good course. But I don't think it's great, and I'm surprised by the list of courses I prefer to it. In some way, I think it's a bizarro version of what many on this forum complain about at places owned by Trump or on Fazio designs. It's a course that is visually wonderful, but lacks playing interest to make it special. I find it a little more fun to look at than to hit a ball around.

So... what did I miss?

[Sam Morrow]

Jason,

 I haven't played Dormie yet (plan on being there in the spring) but you mention the Pines Course at Prairie Club, I loved this course and don't understand the knocks on it.

[hhuffines]

May I ask your score for the Dormie round and if it was higher or lower than your usual?  It may not matter but just curious.  I find the Dormie Club very challenging, especially the par 4 holes after the 10th.  Thanks...

[Jason Thurman]

I shot 89, which is a little high for me (my rounds on four courses I played on the trip were 83 at Tobacco Road, 77 at Pine Needles, 89 at Dormie, 88 at No. 2). It was definitely plenty of golf course, especially on the back nine.

On the other hand, in other first rounds on a course, I shot 99 at Pebble Beach, 93 at Erin Hills, 94 at Prairie Club Pines, 92 at Lawsonia, and 92 at The Harvester. I prefer all those courses to Dormie.

Don't get me wrong. I like Dormie Club. I just didn't find it as interesting as many other courses. Did you?

[Matt MacIver]

I think there are few old threads around stating what you feel, and I generally agreed.  Maybe I was too pre-disposed to love it based on what I'd heard about the ground, and C&C.  It definitely did hit me with the "straight from 18th green to 1st tee box" feeling.  Maybe it's a course that needs multiple plays to appreciate, like any great course (and/or solid Members course), which is what it was built to be.  I guess I liked the ruggest asthetics more than the actual course.  I'm sure I'll give it another try sometime in the next 10 years, and hope I change my mind. 

[Howard Riefs]

I shot 89, which is a little high for me (my rounds on four courses I played on the trip were 83 at Tobacco Road, 77 at Pine Needles, 89 at Dormie, 88 at No. 2).

I'm just impressed that you worked in a Pinehurst trip as part of your Midwest Mashie training regiment. Dedication.

[Mark Saltzman]

Jason,

 I haven't played Dormie yet (plan on being there in the spring) but you mention the Pines Course at Prairie Club, I loved this course and don't understand the knocks on it.

Sam, what are the knocks on Pines? 

1) Didn't make use of the gorge.
2) Some would call the greens overly segmented / contoured
3) Transition from pines to sand hills are awkward
4) what else?

I haven't read too many criticisms, but I just think when it comes to courses in the sand hills of Nebraska, it comes in last by a good amout, and that's mostly because of how good the other courses are.

[John Kavanaugh]

With the exception of Sand Hills you will find most if not all Coore & Crenshaw courses with an empty tee sheet because the layman needs to be educated on what is appealing about the course.  The two that I have played, Cuscowilla and Bandon Trails being of the same ilk.

[Jud_T]

What other C&C courses have you played and how do you rate those?  Just wondering as it seems their courses are subtler and might only reveal themselves fully after multiple plays.

[Jason Thurman]

Jason,

 I haven't played Dormie yet (plan on being there in the spring) but you mention the Pines Course at Prairie Club, I loved this course and don't understand the knocks on it.

Sam, what are the knocks on Pines? 

1) Didn't make use of the gorge.
2) Some would call the greens overly segmented / contoured
3) Transition from pines to sand hills are awkward
4) what else?

I haven't read too many criticisms, but I just think when it comes to courses in the sand hills of Nebraska, it comes in last by a good amout, and that's mostly because of how good the other courses are.

I agree with this. I think the only real complaint I have about the Pines course is that it seemed like it was on a fantastic property with tons of potential (so much variation, fantastic soil) and the result was a very good course with a few mundane moments (there’s a general lack of exceptional holes on the back 9, though no poor ones).

I’ve heard others complain that the Pines course looks silly in spots. Some of the bunkering just looks overdone. I’d offer the opposite complaint of Dormie Club. The visual work and quality of construction is phenomenal. But I don’t see the interest around the greens and options that I see at the Pines course.

Jud, can you point out the subtlety at Dormie Club? It’s the only C&C I’ve played, and I familiarized myself with it as much as I could before playing it and looked at it closely while I was there. I’m sure I missed a few things, as I left feeling a bit like the white guys backstage who get chastised by Tim Meadows in Walk Hard: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_t8i7-17goY

[Bruce Wellmon]

I have Dormie #4 on the GCA most polarizing course list.

I happen to love it but that just my opinion.
The way some greens just sit softly on the lay of the land. (#4 for example).
I like that it gave you options to run the ball in........ or not. (What's the big par 4 you hit over the huge ridge with the huge slope left ...?) Lots of variety on the par 3's. Stout par 5's. A short par 4 or 2.
I'm a fan.
Last time I was there was January, Maybe you just needed Cory on the bag !!
I've played DC, Chessessee Creek, and Bandon Trails on the C&C trail, and #2.

[Sam Morrow]

Jason,

 I haven't played Dormie yet (plan on being there in the spring) but you mention the Pines Course at Prairie Club, I loved this course and don't understand the knocks on it.

Sam, what are the knocks on Pines? 

1) Didn't make use of the gorge.
2) Some would call the greens overly segmented / contoured
3) Transition from pines to sand hills are awkward
4) what else?

I haven't read too many criticisms, but I just think when it comes to courses in the sand hills of Nebraska, it comes in last by a good amout, and that's mostly because of how good the other courses are.

I remember what you'd said about the course, lack of options off the tee, and a number of uninteresting holes. I've heard this from you and others.

[Jud_T]

Jason,

I've yet to play Dormie, although it combined with the reno at #2 makes me really want to get back down there sooner rather than later, so I'm not refuting your impressions.  I just find it surprising that you say there's little interest around the greens as this seems to be one of their strengths, although their shaping is perhaps not as bold or obvious as others.  Also I recall some folks saying that C&C were never afforded the opportunity to come in and do finish work at the course due to budgetary constraints and nobody has adequately answered my question as to what this would have fully entailed.

[J_ Crisham]

I felt that Dormie was good but not great, Conditioning was not very good when I played it. Some of the walks were were a challenge from tee to fairway. THought the final product could have been better. Par 3s were solid.

[David Stewart]

Jason,

I personally love the course, and I'll try to explain why.

I think the look of the place is awesome. Big holes, huge native sandy areas, very rugged. I like that. I am a fan of varying topography more than a lot of people, and the property is awesome. There are so many natural features that are incorporated into the holes. I see lots of strategic options all over the course, and perhaps this just comes with multiple plays. I'll just comment on the holes where you thought the strategy was lacking. (6, 10, 15)

On 6, the fairway is huge, but I think you want to be up the right as it is flatter and higher (better look at the green). The hole is definitely reachable with a good drive, and the second shot makes the golfer think. The bunkers on each side of the green are very penal, and the green is very narrow. Finding them is real trouble. Therefore, laying back of the green where it is wide is a decent option. That is where I see the risk/reward on that hole, whether you want to challenge that narrow green on a long shot.

On 10, you obviously need to be long off the tee, but left is definitely better to have a better chance to clear the native area. From there, I don't see how you can't be sitting in the fairway thinking of your options. Go around the native area? Carry it? Which side of the Principal's Nose do you play? Do you try to carry it? There are so many routes to the green on that hole.

I've gotten into lots of discussions about 15. Some people think that there is only one option, which is a 220 or so yard shot followed by a short iron. I disagree, as I think there are more options off the tee. I have hit hybrid to driver, depending on how I was playing, wind, etc. A driver can leave a 50 yard pitch. Also, the right side of the fairway leaves a much better angle into the green. If you are too far left, the second shot can be completely blind due to the mound. Therefore, challenging the ravine leaves a much easier second shot from a flatter lie. It is a quintessential Cape tee shot, and I don't see what is wrong with that.

Anyway, those on my thoughts. Hopefully we can have some good discussion.

[Mark Saltzman]

I think 6 is exceptionally good.

Put me in the camp that thinks there is only one way to play 15.

Bruce, what are the top 3?

[rjsimper]

All three times I have played #15, I hit driver as far right as my huevos would allow, and then a flip SW to the green. I am -1 on the hole in three plays.

Seems like the 220 shot is not the only option for me.

[David Stewart]

All three times I have played #15, I hit driver as far right as my huevos would allow, and then a flip SW to the green. I am -1 on the hole in three plays.

Seems like the 220 shot is not the only option for me.

Ryan - I'm glad there are others. Hitting driver over there to the right is such a fun shot. It leaves considerably easier shot than from 140 yards in the left fairway.

For those of you that only play it one way, that doesn't mean you still don't have options off the tee.

[Ed Oden]

I think 6 is exceptionally good.

Put me in the camp that thinks there is only one way to play 15.

Mark, I don't agree on either front.  On 6, while the green complex is outstanding, I can't ignore the complete absence of strategy off the tee.  Why have an 80 yard wide fairway if there is no meaningful advantage to placement?   The tee shot there is strictly a matter of how far you can hit it, direction be damned.  On the other hand, I think 15 is one of the more strategic holes on the course.  I've played that hole when each guy in the foursome deliberately chose a different club and line.  Just because you stand on the tee and see only one way for you to play the hole doesn't mean that others won't stand in the same spot and see an entirely different mode of attack that seems like the only way for them to play the hole.  Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually.

[David Stewart]

Just because you stand on the tee and see only one way for you to play the hole doesn't mean that others won't stand in the same spot and see an entirely different mode of attack that seems like the only way for them to play the hole.  Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually.

+1

[Mike Viscusi]

Can those that have played both Dormie and Hidden Creek comment on which is better?  Hidden Creek was my first (and only) C&C and I was left feeling a bit of the same way Jason described his Dormie experience.  It was definitely good and I enjoyed it but I was a little disappointed.  I guess I was expecting more.

[Jason Thurman]

What tee do you guys play and how far do you hit it? I played the tips and the tee shot at 15 was into a stiff wind. I'm a pretty average hitter (250-260 carry with the driver) and it was all I could do just to carry the ravine on the conservative line toward the 150 spot. From a tee forward or without the wind, maybe I'd have some options. But on my visit, the only play was to just hammer the ball at the far bunkers.

[David Stewart]

Jason,

I carry about 270ish with my driver and I played one up from the back. Just a lot more fun from 6500 than 6900.

[Jerry Kluger]

I have been fortunate to play a number of C & C courses and I have never been disappointed although I have enjoyed some more than others.  Surely Sand Hills and Friars Head are in a world of their own and too many people expect all of their courses to be their equal.  Dormie is a very good course with really good greens and the C & C fairways with their bumps and rolls.  Where it in some ways disappoints in my view is features and challenges.  The bunkering just isn't what it is at some of their other courses and there aren't that many options in playing a hole.  Certainly the ground game is available and is most often the preferred method of approaching the green.  I would say it is most comparable to Hidden Creek which perhaps may have some more strategy but doesn't give the same feeling of huge fairways and long ground shots.  Let's get on a discussion of what most golfers would prefer as that is not what most of us view as quality architecture.

[Mark Saltzman]

I think 6 is exceptionally good.

Put me in the camp that thinks there is only one way to play 15.

Mark, I don't agree on either front.  On 6, while the green complex is outstanding, I can't ignore the complete absence of strategy off the tee.  Why have an 80 yard wide fairway if there is no meaningful advantage to placement?   The tee shot there is strictly a matter of how far you can hit it, direction be damned.  On the other hand, I think 15 is one of the more strategic holes on the course.  I've played that hole when each guy in the foursome deliberately chose a different club and line.  Just because you stand on the tee and see only one way for you to play the hole doesn't mean that others won't stand in the same spot and see an entirely different mode of attack that seems like the only way for them to play the hole.  Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually.

Ed, you're not the first person to disagree with me, but...

I think I have talked with you before about disliking width for width's sake.  I am with you there.  But, to say there is "no meaningful advantage to placement" on 6, well, I don't agree.

The approach is considerably easier from the right, which is appropriately guarded by the longer bunker carry on the tee shot.  Approaching the green from the left requires a semi-blind approach over a cross-bunker to terrain that slopes straight away from the golfer.  The farther right the golfer goes, the better his view of the green, the cross-bunker becomes increasingly out-of-play, and the angle at which the approach will land on the terrain changes such that the bounce should be easier to control.

"Strategy s a concept that necessitates variation collectively rather than individually."

Of course I agree with this and I'm sure we had a difference of opinion when I started a thread on 14/15.  I honestly can't remember what I concluded in that thread, but my argument was that there was only one way I would ever play either of those holes, and I asked the group if any/many would play the hole differently.  Perhaps I should have been more clear in saying there is only one way I would ever play 15.  I understand the strategic intent of the hole, but wondered (and I suppose still wonder) if the penalty for playing for the right side of the fairway is too large given the potential benefit.  I guess I should go back and read my old thread.