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Mark Pearce

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BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« on: September 07, 2012, 06:26:43 PM »
So yet another BUDA is over, Team ROW victorious and Silloth the real winner.  I'm sure more internet savvy BUDAites than me will post photos, both of the course and the event.  In the spirit of the purpose of this site, however, howabout an architectural discussion?

At the dinner on Wednesday evening, club president Peter Cusack mentioned the problems the club has with drives from the 11th tee going out of bounds and into the adjacent caravan park.  Fears of litigation loom and the club is seeking a solution.  A few years back the 11th fairway, which used to pass over the hill on the right side of the hole and, therefore, close to the caravan park, was moved significantly to the left to produce a left to right dogleg and more room between fairway and caravans.  I think the current hole is a good hole but, somehow, balls still go OOB and into the park (that's a huge miss, but one aided by the prevailing wind). 

For those who played at BUDA or those who know the course, let's have a discussion as to how this problem may be solved.  If anyone can post photos of the holes (I don't have any) or an aerial (I don't know how to do this), that would be great and would help involve others.

On the drive home this afternoon one possible solution occurred to me.  That woul be to play the 11th as a 150ish yard par 3, to a green situated just short and to the right of the 13th green, there's a hollow over there that might make a good greensite.  You could then walk forward and right, to a 12th tee on the existing 11th fairway and play 12 as a dogleg right to left par 4 to the existing 12th green.  This also addresses one of the very few other issues with the course, the similarity of the existing par 3s on the back 9 (both 12 and 16 currently look and play similarly).  What do people think?
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Martin Toal

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2012, 03:53:25 AM »
Have you any pics of the 11th now? It used to be a great hole with an upper route and a lower route either side of the split in the fairway. Reminded me a bit of the type of hole one would see at RCD.

Sean_A

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2012, 04:25:51 AM »
Have you any pics of the 11th now? It used to be a great hole with an upper route and a lower route either side of the split in the fairway. Reminded me a bit of the type of hole one would see at RCD.



Ciao
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 04:45:42 PM by Sean Arble »
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Ben Stephens

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2012, 04:41:29 AM »
Mark,

I was baffled at first why there were OOB markers so far in and it was great to know the reason why from the Club President.

Club are being forced to make changes as there have been development changes from outside the club boundary. Ideally there should be some sort of regulations ie a buffer that there should be no development within the course boundary as it was there first! This is not the case and it is ridiculous that planners + local authorities allow development to be built so close to a course boundary and in time forces the golf club to make changes!


From a golf course designer's standpoint the potential options are:

Option 1 - is to plant more gorse bushes and put visible bunkers on the right and open up the left a bit more. That does not wholly resolve the problem

Option 2 - is to make the 11 as a par 3 with the green towards the left and 12 as a par 4 opening up the gorse bushes and have the tee  on top of the right hand side mound of the existing 11th fairway so that tee shots are hit away from the caravan park. This is a more feasible option but takes away a fantastic green site.

Option 3 is to go the Mackenzie suggestion route - ie build 4 new holes beyond the 10th hole boundary unfortunately the club does not own this land. If this was done in theory then 10, 11, 12 and 13 will disappear even though 13 is a cracker and a tough nut to crack.


Did anyone realise there was a flat mound which looks like the old 18th tee and it looks like they moved it to its current position not only for lengthening the hole but also to prevent balls going over the fence.

   
Cheers
Ben

Robin_Hiseman

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2012, 05:09:14 AM »
Ben

I'm of the opinion that a golf club has no right to impose on the land of a neighbour and should be able to contain play within its own boundaries.  That the caravan site came later is immaterial.  At the time of design a judgment was made about the perceived risk of a stray shot leaving the property causing harm and at that time it was likely fair to assume that the risk was slight.  It doesn't give a golf club the right to deny adjacent landowners the right to a change of use.   Clearly, there are a great number of anomalies in this regard (Old course etc) but any golf club with a residential, industrial, recreational or highway boundary, present or proposed, needs to be cogniscent of the potential consequences to the course of a disgruntled landowner wanting relief from a golf ball bombardment.  No one should feel at risk on their own property from a stray golf ball. 

The issue is coming to light more and more often nowadays, but I have to say that I feel in many instances the chickens are coming home to roost.  Courses in their thousands have been built up hard against the boundary fences, with no adequate safety buffer.  This might have been acceptable at the time, but modern golf is just not suited to tightly constrained golf properties.  It's a problem we face every time we design a course...and we don't always get it right.

The issue at Silloth is a small part of a potential very big problem.
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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2012, 05:33:02 AM »
Ben

Robin is 100% right on this. It highlights the need to work amicably with neighbours, who have a lot more power than the club may think, the judges will rule strongly in favour of the safety of another human being or continued property damage which could lead to a club not being insured. Courses can easily be ruined if a hole has to be closed or shifted 40 or 50 yards over.
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Ben Stephens

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2012, 05:37:06 AM »
Ben

I'm of the opinion that a golf club has no right to impose on the land of a neighbour and should be able to contain play within its own boundaries.  That the caravan site came later is immaterial.  At the time of design a judgment was made about the perceived risk of a stray shot leaving the property causing harm and at that time it was likely fair to assume that the risk was slight.  It doesn't give a golf club the right to deny adjacent landowners the right to a change of use.   Clearly, there are a great number of anomalies in this regard (Old course etc) but any golf club with a residential, industrial, recreational or highway boundary, present or proposed, needs to be cogniscent of the potential consequences to the course of a disgruntled landowner wanting relief from a golf ball bombardment.  No one should feel at risk on their own property from a stray golf ball. 

The issue is coming to light more and more often nowadays, but I have to say that I feel in many instances the chickens are coming home to roost.  Courses in their thousands have been built up hard against the boundary fences, with no adequate safety buffer.  This might have been acceptable at the time, but modern golf is just not suited to tightly constrained golf properties.  It's a problem we face every time we design a course...and we don't always get it right.

The issue at Silloth is a small part of a potential very big problem.

Robin

I agree with what you have said regarding course boundaries. It is unfortunate that Silloth have to change a hole because of an outside hindrance and I can understand why the caravan site owner has put down as many caravans = £££

This could mean a number of current golf courses rejigging their layouts because they are not protected by law - the residential buildings or caravan parks are due to health and safety regulations even though they are recently built they get more protection.

Adrian and I have been working on creating bigger gaps or distances between fairways to the boundary fence for the layout at Westbury. You are right as this is due partially to modern equipment straying too far and there are more bad golfers playing the game :)

Litigation against golf clubs are rising by the day and we have to face realities. The case scenarios is that course rejig the layout OR buy more land and relocate holes OR completely sell the land and move to a completely new location with the risk of losing members. This will have an huge impact on club finances or great golf holes going which is sad. One wonders about the 9th at Lytham which I have seen 1 or 2 balls going over the fence :)

Was there a similar problem to the par 3 6th at Winged Foot East course?

Cheers
Ben

Ben Stephens

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2012, 05:39:53 AM »
Ben

Robin is 100% right on this. It highlights the need to work amicably with neighbours, who have a lot more power than the club may think, the judges will rule strongly in favour of the safety of another human being or continued property damage which could lead to a club not being insured. Courses can easily be ruined if a hole has to be closed or shifted 40 or 50 yards over.

Adrian,

I agree - and I wrote 'Ideally' in my thread + I know this is not the case and the homeowners do have more power than the golf club why are there more new golf course being built away from built up areas on farmland - its cheaper and a bigger area so that the fairways are further away from the course boundaries.

I just think its ridiculous that the developer knows what he is doing and always know that he/she will win a case if his development is being affected by stray golf balls and force the a 100 year old course to make changes. Thats the way that the law works these days.

We could name hundreds of golf courses that could have a similar problem.

Anyway what do you think of the Options to resolve this issue?

Cheers
Ben
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:43:30 AM by Ben Stephens »

Martin Toal

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2012, 05:47:23 AM »
I don't agree with Top Gear on much, but I do like their attitude towards caravans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBokVru6-88

Ben Stephens

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2012, 06:36:10 AM »
I don't agree with Top Gear on much, but I do like their attitude towards caravans:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBokVru6-88

Martin,

They dropped and exploded a caravan near where I live. I absolutely despise caravans they are a real blot on the rural roadscape as well as the landscape!

Cheers
Ben

Martin Toal

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2012, 06:44:54 AM »
All the arguments in favour of protecting people who live near golf courses are reasonable, but it is a real pity that hole had to be changed. Previously it played as a tee shot where you could either hit it along the right side where a ridge extended down the fairway edge and offered a commanding view of the green below, or down the left which came down a slope to the fairway on the same level as the green. The left route seemed to give a better angle usually, iirc.

How did our BUDAies like the current hole?

James Boon

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2012, 07:15:17 AM »
Here is an aerial of the current set up, with some surrounding context:



I'll post a couple of photos and thoughts later...

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins, Alwoodley

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2012, 08:28:35 AM »
Regarding solution (b), the proposed change to #11 and #12, something like that is exactly what came to mind when I read the description of the problem.  But, looking at the aerial photo above, I'm not sure it would be much help.  Yes, the change might move the problem area away from the caravan park, but wouldn't it just move further along the boundary to someone else's back yard to be?

These boundary problems are all around the world.  Royal Melbourne (East) lost one great hole, the short par-4 15th, to it.  Moortown lost a couple of holes, as did Yarra Yarra.  Seems to me that this is one of the less-recognized side effects of the "Grip it and rip it" equipment rules of today.  And that, once again, architects do not seem to mind so much because it generates work for them.

Niall C

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2012, 08:31:59 AM »
Mark

Just one small correction to your original post, the mound on the right was created when they reshaped the fairway previously to create more of a dog-leg. As Martin says, their used to be a mound in the middle of the fairway (I think I'm right with that description as I only played the hole that way once). That explains I think why the grass is so lush on that mound. The reason why they reshaped the fairway was to encourage play away from the caravan park but golfers being golfers, they like to take the more direct line and with the wind mostly (?) coming off the shoulder any slice gets exaggerated with the consequence of shots straying over to the right. In all the time I played there I can't honestly recall anyone hitting it into the caravan park but don't doubt that it happens.

Personally the only solution I can think of other than buying the caravan park might be to turn the 11th into a longish par 3 with the green near the dog-leg and the 12th playing as a par 4 to the present 12th green. By doing this you focus the tee shots more at the trouble area however you create the same issue further along the boundary for the drive to the 12th. From memory there are only fields lying adjacent to the likely landing area for drives to the new look 12th however who's to say those fileds won't be developed in the future.

Unfortunately, I don't see any easy solution.

Ben

Surely everyone has the right to be able to enjoy the use of their own property without the neighbours causing a nuisance ? How would you like it if your neighbour starting throwing stones through your windows ? Would it make any difference if he bought his house before you bought yours ?

Niall

James Boon

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2012, 11:10:41 AM »
Gentlemen,

An interesting discussion regarding the boundary and safety issues.

Ben's comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, regarding the "ideal possibility of a safety buffer around a golf course", and your subsequent responses got me thinking. A club should seek to get on with its neighbours and safety is always a key concern. But several of you have hinted at the "what right have they to impose on me on my own land" scenario, which is often cited by people here and elsewhere in relation to similar issues. But don't forget this happens for many different reasons (I'm thinking restrictions due to flooding, tree retention etc for instance) and thats why we have a planning process with all the planning policy involved to prevent inappropriate development. Now I now that golf as a recreation is different and so this is somewhat of a devil's advocate comment... So in this case though the club was there first, but I suspect the caravan park has been there a while also. However, just suppose the caravan park wasn't there and the land owner applied for planning permission to build a caravan park on that site, would it be negligent from a safety perspective of the planners to allow the whole site to be developed rather than restricting it to the safer parts of the site? Let me put it another way. As an architect (of buildings) if a client came to me with a site overlooking a golf course, I would look to work out the danger area from any stray balls, and keep any houses, public areas, whatever, away from that part of the site, so would it be negligent of me as a designer to put people in harms way?

Back to Silloth though, as Mark's question and the clubs concerns are valid.

I notice in the club history book that when the course record of 59 was achieved in October 2001, the 11th was played as a par 3 of 135yards from the white tees with the blues and yellows remaining as the circa 400 yard par 4. This is shown on the reproduced card in the book, as if the original par and yardage has been tippexed out with the new numbers written over? It does say it was foreshortened due to major works but if so, why not for the other tees?

Also, in the clubs yardage book, the pros tip is to play up the right side of the fairway! Even if thats the case, cosnidering the issues discussed, I'm not sure the pro should be encouraging players up that side of the fairway?

Also, if the 11th was played as a par 3, then I would say the new green would need to be really tucked in under the 13th with new tees really emphasising the angle away from the boundary. But this would be around 150yards at most and the next would become a long par 4 / short par 5 making that 3 similar holes in a row tacking backwards and forwards.

I know they have put the out of bounds inboard of the actual boundary line to discourage golfers, but I missed the fairway that side a few times, and it wasn't too bad. However there were plenty of places on the course where a slight miss was in serious trouble, so perhaps they could clear out the bank on the left (and therefore also the left when playing 13) to make that friendlier and then get some heather on that right hand side, maybe even some dense gorse (not withstanding the desire to reduce the gorse) closer to the boundary. That would really encourage people to the left a little more. perhaps then make the left the side to be by adding another bunker short right, while removing the one short left and thinning out some of the gorse on that bank as well?

Cheers,

James
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Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2012, 12:14:28 PM »
Tom D,

Past the caravan park are fields, so the safety issue isn't an issue further up.

James,

A par 3 of 150 yards, with a green below the 13th, would be a different length to the existing par 3s and play in a different direction to 6 and 9.  The par 4 could, probably, be around 420' playing in a similar direction to 14, so downwind when 13 is upwind, so probably wouldn't play that long.  It may not be ideal but that would solve the caravan park problem and the similarity of 12 and 16.  Another alternative might be to re-route the course and build a couple of extra holes (to replace 10 and 11)  on the great looking land bounded by 3, 6, 7, 15 and 16 but a bit of work would be needed on the routing.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2012, 12:51:32 PM »
Gentlemen,

An interesting discussion regarding the boundary and safety issues.

Ben's comment, and I'm paraphrasing here, regarding the "ideal possibility of a safety buffer around a golf course", and your subsequent responses got me thinking. A club should seek to get on with its neighbours and safety is always a key concern. But several of you have hinted at the "what right have they to impose on me on my own land" scenario, which is often cited by people here and elsewhere in relation to similar issues. But don't forget this happens for many different reasons (I'm thinking restrictions due to flooding, tree retention etc for instance) and thats why we have a planning process with all the planning policy involved to prevent inappropriate development. Now I now that golf as a recreation is different and so this is somewhat of a devil's advocate comment... So in this case though the club was there first, but I suspect the caravan park has been there a while also. However, just suppose the caravan park wasn't there and the land owner applied for planning permission to build a caravan park on that site, would it be negligent from a safety perspective of the planners to allow the whole site to be developed rather than restricting it to the safer parts of the site? Let me put it another way. As an architect (of buildings) if a client came to me with a site overlooking a golf course, I would look to work out the danger area from any stray balls, and keep any houses, public areas, whatever, away from that part of the site, so would it be negligent of me as a designer to put people in harms way?


Also, in the clubs yardage book, the pros tip is to play up the right side of the fairway! Even if thats the case, cosnidering the issues discussed, I'm not sure the pro should be encouraging players up that side of the fairway?


James, this is my opinion. I dont think councils would consider the safety issue, they would presume that the golf course users would contain their ball to their land and i think the UK LAW would rule that the golf club has a duty to reasonably protect its neighbours. The issue of who was there first would not really count, I think its a bit like a right to a view....its not quite what people tend to think. Mark Pearce as a lawyer might be able to add and I might be talking total crap, but a new planning application for a caravan park would likely be viewed on the merits rather than how it affects the golf club. They would have the right to comment and to support or object but any objection they make has to be a reason that conflicts with the planning laws rather than a "just dont like it", the safety issues they may likely bring up could be the very thing that haunts them later if the man gets his permission.
Re, the pro and his comments about the right side of the fairway, I think if its fairway its fair to try and hit tt bitha, he may have written this long ago anyway before the caravan park expansion.
The whole issue highlights that ALL golf clubs should do an audit to highlight areas likely to be a problem, planting or leaving long grass are great ways to help shape the way a hole is played, white stakes for 10 years too might not look the best but they may be the lesser of two evils.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
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Robin_Hiseman

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2012, 04:37:30 PM »
Here is an aerial of the current set up, with some surrounding context:



I'll post a couple of photos and thoughts later...

Cheers,

James

That looks a lot like a hole I've been asked to redesign in Italy.  I don't know the terrain but it looks to me as if you moved Tee 11 to the gorse to the left of green 10 that the increased distance from the boundary would eradicate any issues with the tee shot.

I've never quite got the logic of putting OOB so close to the line of play as a protective measure.  Nobody slices one intentionally that far off line, and by penalising them stroke and distance you just give them more opportunities to strafe the vans.  A lateral hazard demarcation would at least get them away from the tee.
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Mark Pearce

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2012, 05:42:48 PM »
Robin,

I understand there is a Roman fort beneath that gorse, with restrictions on what can be done.  Also, that's pretty much in line with anyone trying to drive the green of 10, which brings with it safety issues.  Also, wouldn't there still be a danger of a slice still reaching the caravan park? 
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Rich Goodale

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2012, 10:15:35 AM »
Robin, et. al.

My thoughts last week were to move the 10th green back to the area of the 11th tee (thus strengthening what is now an interesting but generally weak hole).  Then, as you suggest, move the 11th tee to the left of the current 10th green.  This land is elevated and would provide some nice views in addition to mitigating the caravan site problem.  The only way you can hit the caravans today is with a weak slice into the wind.  With the tee back and to the left (and maybe some additional mouding to the left of the current fairway), the caravans are efectively out of play, IMHO.

Rich
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

James Boon

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2012, 04:40:51 PM »
Adrian,

I can't comment on the intricacies of what planning officers are supposed to take into account when considering an application as at times it seems to me that it varies massively. However, I have on several occasions had planning officers enquire about safety issues related to a design and they mentioned that if they approved something that was inherintly dangerous, it might come back to them (nothing was dangerous by the way, what kind of an architect do you think I am...  ::) )

Robin,

I agree with you regarding white stakes as a deterrent to people hitting balls in that direction. As you say, no one deliberatly hits it out of bounds.

I would therefore say again that a visual deterrent such as a bank plastered in gorse that gets quite close to the edge of the fairway would certainly help keep people away from that side.

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins, Alwoodley

James Boon

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2012, 04:55:37 PM »
Rich,

You say you consider the 10th an interesting but generally weak hole?

I didn't consider it weak myself and wish there were more short par 4s that were within range for more modest hitters. I will admit that I don't often drive par 4s and so knocking it to about 12ft one day (lipped out for eagle  ::) ) was a huge thrill for me, especially as its blind so I had the anticipation of waiting till I could see the green to know the result.

Also, if laying up there seemed to be plenty of interest with those bunkers on the corner of the dogleg?

I guess as its a hole I personally liked and enjoyed I'm a little defensive when people suggest changing it, as even the club president did on Wednesday evening...

Cheers,

James
2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins, Alwoodley

Rich Goodale

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2012, 03:48:37 AM »
Rich,

You say you consider the 10th an interesting but generally weak hole?

I didn't consider it weak myself and wish there were more short par 4s that were within range for more modest hitters. I will admit that I don't often drive par 4s and so knocking it to about 12ft one day (lipped out for eagle  ::) ) was a huge thrill for me, especially as its blind so I had the anticipation of waiting till I could see the green to know the result.

Also, if laying up there seemed to be plenty of interest with those bunkers on the corner of the dogleg?

I guess as its a hole I personally liked and enjoyed I'm a little defensive when people suggest changing it, as even the club president did on Wednesday evening...

Cheers,

James

I did say "interesting" James. :)
Life is good.

Any afterlife is unlikely and/or dodgy.

Jean-Paul Parodi

Lynn_Shackelford

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Re: BUDA X redux - Solving the problem of Silloth's 11th
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2012, 04:01:45 PM »
As an operator of a course for 11 years, which unforunately included lawsuits, I have to opine that there is truly only one solution.
The club must purchase the caravan park.
Perhaps the town could assist by finding some alternate and better land for the current owner of the caravan park.  Leave 10 as is, fix 11 if you can overcome some "Roman fort" and then 11 would be pretty cool with two leveled fairway and different from 15.
All other fixes cannot guarantee 0% for balls going into the carvan park.

If someone gets hit at the park, there is always an architect out there who makes a living out of testifying about the danger that was involved.

It must be kept in mind that the elusive charm of the game suffers as soon as any successful method of standardization is allowed to creep in.  A golf course should never pretend to be, nor is intended to be, an infallible tribunal.
               Tom Simpson