Please give an example where you use strategy off the tee.

[John Kavanaugh]

Sometimes I hit less than driver off the tee because it is a short hole and I love being in the fairway.  Besides that I can not think of a hole in the world where I wouldn't be tickled pink to hit a drive solid down the middle of the fairway.  I guess maybe sometimes I may try to cut a corner on a dogleg par 4 but seem to have outgrown that choice as I have grown older, wiser and shorter.  The question:

Name a hole that you play where you use strategic choices off the tee.

If you can't....Is what Tiger does strategy when he hits stinger three woods?

[John Kavanaugh]

Even on the most famous dogleg in the world, the 13th at ANGC, I wouldn't say trying to draw the ball around the corner as being a strategic choice.  It is more simply where you want to hit the ball and anything else is a failure.  Therefore, I am taking cutting the corner on doglegs off the table as a strategic choice.

[Nigel Islam]

The positioning of the bunkering/trouble dictates to the pros what club to hit. An good example is #18 at Lytham. Scott had been laying up short of the bunkers on the left all week and Ernie had been blowing driver over them. The worst thing to do is to hit the club where a solid(but slightly offline) shot puts you at the exact distance where you are in a very penal situation. Which is of course what Scott did in the final round. Another example would be #3 at Augusta where driver for the pros leaves them with a half wedge to a very small target. Maybe a better example for you question however would be #18 at Bethpage where those bunkers really pinch in at driver length dictating for most pros a 3 wood or iron. Or even #18 at Victoria where the pros were mostly hitting 3wood or iron to stay short of the bunkers on the left side.

 

[Carl Nichols]

John:

I'm not accurate enough with my driver to be anything other than happy if I find myself in the fairway, even on the "wrong" side.  But there are several holes at my home course where a miss on one side is a whole lot better than a miss on the other -- usually because of a dogleg where being on the inside, in the rough and blocked out by trees, is way worse than being on the outside -- so on those holes I'll aim well to the better side and hope that if I miss, I miss there. . . . even though I'm taking the longer way home.  I suppose a more accurate driver would make a different decision, i.e., to hug the inside of the dogleg to have a shorter iron in.  

Split fairways also require a strategic choice, since you have to pick which of two fairways you're aiming down the middle of.  

[Nigel Islam]

As far as the stinger 3 wood I think this is as you said "a love to be in the fairway" shot for Tiger. Although I would suggest that Tiger is one of the few pros who comes up with a pre tournament strategy and sticks with it. His play at Liverpool in 2006 is a textbook example of how combining good strategy with good execution has set him apart from the rest of his generation.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Take the 17th at NGLA. 
If you play smart (strategic), youll want to hit something down the left side to give yourself the best angle into a green.

As a college golfer, I almost always am thinking strategy off the tee, as it affects everything else.
- where is the pin? - i want the best angle as possible
- where is the slope in the green? - same as above
- are there any glaring hazards that need to be avoided? - I would then decide to either carry or lay short of this
etc.

[Doug Sobieski]

Ballyneal - 1, 7, 9, 12, 14

None of them are so narrow where they absolutely REQUIRE a shorter club (except maybe 7), but wind and hole location impact the decision from the tee. For example, in most cases on 14, if the pin is back right there is no way I want to hit it past the central bunker even though there is PLENTY of room to hit driver on the hole.

[Bill Seitz]

I think where you're most likely to see it is on a short par four.  An obvious example would be #10 at Riviera, even though most pros go for it now.  I remember going to the L.A. Open when I was a kid back in the late '80s and it seemed like at that time, more pros laid up than went for it, but that was certainly a strategic decision.  There are probably a lot of pros who have walked off that green wishing they had laid up.

I've only played that hole once, so for me a better example would be #13 at Kingsley.  I pretty much always hit driver there, but I may change may target off the tee depending on where the pin is.  If the pin is on the top left, I prefer that side of the (huge) fairway.  If it's in the bowl on the lower right, I usually go at the front bunker, figuring I'll either end up there or my cut will take the ball down into the rough on the right, which is a pretty good position from which to attack that pin.  

Also, on #7 at Kingsley (a par 5), I'll change my strategy depending on the wind.  If the hole plays into the wind, I'll try to hit the ball further off the tee and hit a three wood on my second shot, as I'd like to be as close to the green as possible even though the approach is blind.  If there is no wind or the hole is playing downwind, I lay back on the shelf about 110-120 yards out.  I don't like the longer approach when it's into the wind, as the wind has a tendency to accentuate mistakes from a punch 8 or 9 iron, while it has less effect on a 40-50 yard pitch (and often a positive effect).  

[Jason Topp]

OK - I will bite.

I make a decision of the line I want to try and take on every hole.  That decision depends on how I am swinging that day, the risk of different types of misses and my confidence.  If the hole is well designed, the choice is more interesting.  Examples:

On any hole with water, ob or a bunker, particularly on the right side, my line off the tee will depend on how confident I am that I am not going to block my tee shot.  The temptation to aim closer to the hazard depends on whether or not the green is configured in such a way to provide an advantage for taking an agressive line.  If it is not configured to provide an advantage, I will aim left.  Doak's book provides an example of this at North Berwick where he imagines a golfer hitting it in a bunker at the corner of a dogleg, then giving it a wide berth the next day, and then inching closer and closer day by day until he is back in the bunker.

On 4 of the holes at my course, there is a fairway bunker precisely at the location where I would otherwise hit my tee shot.  Sometimes I will hit short, sometimes I will give the bunker a wide berth and at other times I will try and skirt past it.  The closer I am to the bunker the better angle I have on my next shot so the decision is an interesting decision.

Generally, at the Old Course, there is an advantage to hitting the ball right off the tee but more trouble associated with the line.  One always has the option of bailing out left and having a more difficult approach.

[John Ezekowitz]

One example for me is 12 at Merion. I try to hit as big a cut as I can because I feel like a flat lie from the low side of that fairway, even if it is in the rough, is easier than hitting a short iron with the ball well below my feet to that green (although it is an easier green to approach now).

[Mark McKeever]

The 17th hole at Shuylkill Country Club is a par 5 where I typically hit a 3 iron off the tee to lay short of where trees pinch the hole. Then I hit some sort of wood or long iron to the layup area.  I make more 4's and 5's this way than trying to thread a drive through trouble.

Mark

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am not good enough to be more detailed than one half of the fw or the other.  Probably only "slightly left of center or slightly right of center."  I know some players can aim for a small level spot in the fw, but I cannot.

I am not good enough to reliably play a draw or fade.  I usually play what I happen to be trending towards that day, but sometimes try to force a particular shot pattern.

The courses where I am most acutely aware of picking a line are Pete Dye courses, with his subtle fw angles and oft hard hazards.  Nearly every hole is at least a gentle cape hole.  

With most "bunker one side" fw, with lateral bunkers, I might aim away or near.  Similar to you, I might use a layup once in a while.  But those are avoidance as much as getting the best angle.

On narrow holes, like Medinah or Olympic, I might consciously swing at 85-90% to assure control, but use a driver.  I sometimes tee it higher or lower for wind avoidance or use.  Or to carry trees.

There are the occaisional double fw challenge holes that force a decision.

And, I know to tee up on the side of OB to be able to aim further away from the adjacent street or houses (or sometimes water)

In reality, that is all tee shot strategy is - picking a line and shot pattern that best enables you to get there.  I believe for most, its playing defense - staying in the fw.  For the best, its achieving advantage sometimes.  I recall Lanny Wadkins telling me that at his home course (Preston Trail) its just about getting it in the narrow fw.  He might play for a favorable angle if there are fronting bunkers, because it allows him to go down if in a half club situation and have an uphill putt.  

However, he once also gave me a real detailed description of how he loved to play Riviera in his prime, because he could "hit all the shot" and it would reward the low draw (5) high fade, etc.

My takeaway was that you have to be pretty good to cut the hog that fine.

[Ivan Morris]

Short par 4s like the 3rd at Sunningdale require various degrees of strategy but you could argue that having a go at driving the green is a 'strategy' too - albeit not a very wise one ;-))))))))    

[Tyler Kearns]

John,

To use an example you are familiar with, the 1st hole at Dismal. I was in an appreciably better position to score when I hit a draw off the tee and finished in the big bowl 80-90 yards from the green. When I hit it straight or with a little fade, I was left on top of the plateau with a longer approach and had to deal more with the downhill slope coming off the mound short right of the green.

TK

[Matthew Mollica]

In the sandbelt in Melbourne, there are dozens of holes where the best point of approach is made from the very edge of the fairway. Some of those fairways are very wide. What's more, each yard you place your ball lateral to that ideal position, the approach shot increases in difficulty. Wither due to the cant of the land from which the approach shot is made, the influence of hazards nearer the green, or the tilt of the putting surface. I find myself often aiming to drive to concise segments of fairway edges on RMW 2,3,4,8,9,14,17 and 18 as well as KH 1,2,3,4,11,12,13 and RME 3,5,9,11,15 and consider none of those to be simply a matter of cutting a corner or flying a drive bunker. And I'm now a double digit handicap!

MM

[Jud_T]

#13 at Kingsley.  The sucker play is to hit Driver.  Unless you drive the green, you're better off having laid back to full wedge yardage.  Trying to hit a half shot or a lob wedge off that tight fescue turf is extremely demanding and not the percentage play,except for the very best players, and even that's questionable. .

[Jason Topp]

However, he once also gave me a real detailed description of how he loved to play Riviera in his prime, because he could "hit all the shot" and it would reward the low draw (5) high fade, etc.

My takeaway was that you have to be pretty good to cut the hog that fine.

Nice story and line.  Is it your view that strategy has little to do with playing the game on a good course for those of of us without the skills of Lanny Wadkins?  If so, I disagree. I think choices are important on a good course, in fact they are at the heart of a good design.

[Stephen Davis]

A good example for me would be #6 at Pacific Dunes. This is a short par 4 where you could take driver and get there, however the slope of the fairway is increasingly right to left the closer you get to the hole and you have a bunker on the right and a huge/deep bunker on the left waiting for any pulled driver shots. For me the best play is as far right as you can get and as close to the right bunker as you dare hit it. This gives you the best angle and best shot at holding the green.

[Jim Sherma]

This is an interesting conversation that gets to the heart of a lot of what gets discussed in this forum.

How good of a ball striker does one have to be in order for architecture and its ability to dictate strategy really matter?

I've had a single digit handicap for most of the last 30 years (lowest sustained handicap was a 3 and I am currently in the 5's). It's been a rare few stretches where I really felt like my game got to the point where I was PLAYING THE GAME. By this I mean where I was able to have a reasonable expectation of executing the shot I tried and therefore a reasonable expectation of tactically executing a strategic plan.

Outside of these stretches of very solid ballstriking I feel like I try to execute the shots I've left myself and hope my short game is good enough to scrape out a score. In other words, I've had glimpses of playing the game as laid out by the architect and many years of hitting a golf ball around and hoping to get it into the hole in spite of my inability to execute the shots required by the strategic nature of the holes (In this I refer to the game as the chess-like sequence of shots and not the act of hitting the ball).  

[JR Potts]

I generally smash it down the fairway as far and straight as I can.  However, when I was a better player, I would try cutting a ball or drawing a ball to take one side of the course out of play or fit the ball into the desired path of the hole.

But generally....I've always tried smashing down the fairway as far and straight as it can go.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jason,

didn't say that at all.  Its a matter of degrees.  Or as one of the ODG's put it, to know your limitations and play within them, which is different for everyone.

For me, half a fw using my typical shot pattern (or typical for that day).  For Lanny, maybe a third of a fw, with a particular shot (in the case of 5 Riv, a low running hook to hit the speed slot)  You and I cut the hog, just not finely.  Also, probably more playing defense for us, more offense for a better player.

[George Pazin]

I suspect most golfers utilize strategy more when playing in competitive events, where the consequences of poor choices are more dramatic.

[Matthew Petersen]

Like you John, I used to hit 3 wood on some tees simply because it was more likely to put me in the fairway. Essentially any hole under 400 yards or with a very narrow target ... I would hit 3 wood because I was confident I could hit it straight.

For whatever reason, that's not necessarily true anymore ... but I still tend to hit 3 wood off the tee on holes under 380 yards or so. Now, it's not to do with hitting the fairway. I'm honestly as likely to do that with driver as any other club in the bag. Now, it's about leaving myself a good full iron shot into the green. I have found I just prefer a full 8 or 9 iron over a ... 3/4 wedge or some such calculation.

The second option, the way I tend to approach a hole now, is more related to actual strategy. I'm giving up distance in the hope of leaving myself what is an easier shot for me. Of course, it's a strategic decision not really dictated by the architecture of the course.

[Greg Tallman]

Any hole that dictates a preferred shot shape employs startegy albeit not for all golfers.

[Jason Topp]

Jason,

didn't say that at all.  Its a matter of degrees.  Or as one of the ODG's put it, to know your limitations and play within them, which is different for everyone.

For me, half a fw using my typical shot pattern (or typical for that day).  For Lanny, maybe a third of a fw, with a particular shot (in the case of 5 Riv, a low running hook to hit the speed slot)  You and I cut the hog, just not finely.  Also, probably more playing defense for us, more offense for a better player.

Got it - wider funnel for us.  I agree with that