How good is Crooked Stick?

[John Kavanaugh]

Ken,

If you bet large enough they will stay at your house before you play.  They do a great job holding tight against the non gamers.

[David Stewart]

Perhaps a hole by hole comparison of the two courses would be in order if you want to compare the Fort and Crooked Stick.

Chris,

This would be a fun exercise. Not sure if we should do it here or start a new thread. My Uncle Ted (who posted above) really enjoys doing this so perhaps he will join in the party. The first has to go to The Fort though 

[Ted Sturges]

OK, you hooked me:

1.  Fort   (Fort 1 up)
2.  Fort (kind of hard to vote for a hole with telephone poles and 200 ft high netting)   (Fort 2 up)
3.  CS   (Fort 1 up)
4.  Fort  (Fort 2 up)
5.  CS   (FOrt 1 up)
6.  Fort (one of the best holes on a great piece of property)   (Fort 2 up)
7.  CS  (Fort 1 up)
8.  CS   (All square)
9.  CS   (CS 1 up)
10.  CS  (CS 2 up)
11.  Fort  (CS 1 up)
12.  CS  (CS 2 up)
13.  Halved  (CS 2 up)
14.  CS   (CS 3 up)
15.  Fort   (CS 2 up)
16.  CS  (CS 3 up)
17.  Fort  (CS 2 up)
18.  Fort (best finishing hole in Indy)  (CS 1 up)

[Ted Sturges]

Ted,

Multicultural environment.  By this I am referring to various golf cultures.  Sticks, hacks, men, women, children, walkers and cart ballers.  I don't believe I have ever seen a course where every culture is so welcome.  To me this has everything to do with Alice Dye and the special relationship her and Pete have shared through the years.

French Lick Dye.  I love that course most of all because it is empty and in perfect condition.  I was up there yesterday and a group of tourists were stumbling around trying to get a group picture taken in front of the Dye statue.  The head super was driving by, stopped and got out of his truck, and took the picture while they posed in various states of Indiana stupor. The views combined with the outstanding service has a way of making you feel special about yourself.  Damn, I just realized how much it reminds me of Dismal River.  Sadly, I like that kind of stuff.

Architecturally the course fits my game perfectly.  I love the narrow fairways where if you do hit a bad shot the rough is still a moderate at worst shot to the green.  I believe every green can be reached by bouncing the ball on.  I love tightly mown chipping areas because I will use my putter anywhere from 50 yds in.  The greens are very small which limits my three putting.  The course is an easy walk if that is in need for the day.  Something also begs you to play 36 holes each time you visit.  I don't get tired there.

But most of all number one reason I love the place is that they don't need greenside fans to keep the greens perfect and the fairways are firm no matter the heat index.  That has as much to do with properly designed architecture as the maintenance budget.  Oh wait, am I talking about Dismal again?

Crooked Stick has changed a great deal over the years (both the course and the membership).  When it was built, and what the Dye's envisioned was a club for golfers.  Thus, the avg. handicap at the club was among the lowest of any club in America (and it had a small membership to boot).  That is not the case today, and the "multicultural" thing you refer to (I get it now) is fairly accurate in my opinion, but I don't believe that it has much to do with the Dye's (their original intent for the club would have been "singularcultural" (good golfers)).

Thanks for your comments about Dye FL.  I don't share the same views of the course as you do.  To me, the narrow fairways reduce the driving strategy to "just hit the fairway", rather than "which part of the fairway is the best place to be to approach this green?".  This is so much different than Crooked Stick and is puzzling to me why Pete came to this conclusion on driving strategy after all those years of designing courses.

TS

PS:  You seem very focused on green fans (is FL's lack of fans truly your #1 reason for liking the course?).

[Matthew Sander]

Not that this necessarily reflects the overall quality of the course, but they are going awfully low early in today's round...

[Matthew Sander]

OK, you hooked me:

1.  Fort   (Fort 1 up)
2.  Fort (kind of hard to vote for a hole with telephone poles and 200 ft high netting)   (Fort 2 up)
3.  CS   (Fort 1 up)
4.  Fort  (Fort 2 up)
5.  CS   (FOrt 1 up)
6.  Fort (one of the best holes on a great piece of property)   (Fort 2 up)
7.  CS  (Fort 1 up)
8.  CS   (All square)
9.  CS   (CS 1 up)
10.  CS  (CS 2 up)
11.  Fort  (CS 1 up)
12.  CS  (CS 2 up)
13.  Halved  (CS 2 up)
14.  CS   (CS 3 up)
15.  Fort   (CS 2 up)
16.  CS  (CS 3 up)
17.  Fort  (CS 2 up)
18.  Fort (best finishing hole in Indy)  (CS 1 up)

Ted,

Thanks for your thoughts on hole vs. hole. Unfortunately, I haven't played Crooked Stick, so I couldn't do the same exercise. However, I have played several rounds at The Fort, and I noted that most of the holes I appreciate there, win in your match up.

[Tim_Cronin]

The first groups have made the turn in the first round, and the course average is 68.963. That's more than three strokes under par. That's under the all-time low of 68.971 in the third round at Bellerive in 2008 (and Bellerive was par 70). It's also under the all-time low round in relation to par (1.862 under par 71 in the fourth round at Cog Hill in 2007).

FYI: Lift, clean and place today. 'Nuff said.

[David Stewart]

OK, you hooked me:

1.  Fort   (Fort 1 up)
2.  Fort (kind of hard to vote for a hole with telephone poles and 200 ft high netting)   (Fort 2 up)
3.  CS   (Fort 1 up)
4.  Fort  (Fort 2 up)
5.  CS   (FOrt 1 up)
6.  Fort (one of the best holes on a great piece of property)   (Fort 2 up)
7.  CS  (Fort 1 up)
8.  CS   (All square)
9.  CS   (CS 1 up)
10.  CS  (CS 2 up)
11.  Fort  (CS 1 up)
12.  CS  (CS 2 up)
13.  Halved  (CS 2 up)
14.  CS   (CS 3 up)
15.  Fort   (CS 2 up)
16.  CS  (CS 3 up)
17.  Fort  (CS 2 up)
18.  Fort (best finishing hole in Indy)  (CS 1 up)

Is 5 at CS that much better than 5 at the Fort? Do you not like the downhill tee shot?
Why does 15 at the Fort win?

I would halve those two, so we would still end up the same, but 1 up is a lot closer that what most people would probably think.

[Ted Sturges]

David,

I've always thought the 5th at the Fort didn't quite work.  For years, there was very little grass on that green.  They've thinned out the trees and it's better now, but I favored the 5th at CS because it is a par 5 hole with strategy and a bold green complex.  I could havle them...so no big deal. 

I gave the 15th to the Fort because it is a strong 2 shot hole and I've never understood what the 15th at CS is.  In 91, they stopped mowing the front of the green and only used the back third.  This year, I think they'll use the entire green, but it is a very short par 5 (maybe it's a par 4?).  Dunno.  I like the 15th at The Fort better.

There is no doubt that the property at the Fort is leaps and bounds better than the property at CS.

TS

[David Stewart]

Okay. For some reason I had the 14th and 15th at the Fort switched in my mind, so that was my problem there. I do like 15 at the Fort, but I don't really have an issue with 15 at CS. It's almost like 2 holes in one, a strong par 4 to the front green, a 4.5 to the back. Definitely not many holes like that one.

[Chris Clouser]

Ted,

That is pretty much what I thought as well.  The Fort is much better early in the round, CS in the middle with the exception of the 11th at the Fort and the tail end of the course to the Fort.   Just proves my thoughts on the gap between what is perceived the high private course to the top public courses in the area.

[Josh Tarble]

OK, you hooked me:

1.  Fort   (Fort 1 up)
2.  Fort (kind of hard to vote for a hole with telephone poles and 200 ft high netting)   (Fort 2 up)
3.  CS   (Fort 1 up)
4.  Fort  (Fort 2 up)
5.  CS   (FOrt 1 up)
6.  Fort (one of the best holes on a great piece of property)   (Fort 2 up)
7.  CS  (Fort 1 up)
8.  CS   (All square)
9.  CS   (CS 1 up)
10.  CS  (CS 2 up)
11.  Fort  (CS 1 up)
12.  CS  (CS 2 up)
13.  Halved  (CS 2 up)
14.  CS   (CS 3 up)
15.  Fort   (CS 2 up)
16.  CS  (CS 3 up)
17.  Fort  (CS 2 up)
18.  Fort (best finishing hole in Indy)  (CS 1 up)

You could make the argument that the Fort has a superior 1st 6 holes.  But from there on down, I think CS may win out.   I think 11 and 13 are better at CS.  17 may be better as well.  I do like 15 and 18 a lot at the Fort though. 

If you factor in the walkability/routing and pace of play at CS, I'd rather play at CS.  The one thing that kills me at the Fort is the rounds are abysmally slow.  I'd probably choose 10 rounds 7 at CS 3 at the Fort.

[Andy Troeger]

I haven't played Crooked Stick in 15 years and I understand the keep tinkering, so I'll be interested to watch a little golf this weekend to see if it still generally resembles the older version. Its not the best course in Indiana--Victoria National and Wolf Run are both better IMO. Its pretty good given the land its on, however. I wish I could participate in the discussion regarding The Fort--I only played there once and got in about 12 holes before darkness (talk about slow play!).

Crooked Stick has a few really memorable holes, although it gets off to a bit of a slow start. It reminds me most of Oak Tree, when looking at Dye's other works. I still think both courses deserve strong consideration for the US Top 100 and I place Crooked Stick as a pretty comfortable 3rd in Indiana. #4-6 for me would be South Bend CC, The Ross Course at French Lick, and Sycamore Hills. The Fort, Rock Hollow, Sultan's Run, and Warren at ND (not necessarily that order) are the rest of my top ten. The Dye at French Lick doesn't merit consideration for my top ten in state--its beautiful but those narrow fairways are silly at best. Given all the Indy courses I haven't seen its wouldn't be top twenty either.

[PCCraig]

I like the Fort and all, but better than CS? Really?

Sure, the Fort has a lot more movement in its terrain, but I don't think it has anywhere near the strategy or architectural interest as CS. Since when is CS considered flat? You guy have clearly never played golf in Chicago

[David Stewart]

I like the Fort and all, but better than CS? Really?

Based on Ted's hole-by-hole match play, CS would still be slightly better. Which hole-by-hole results do you not like?


Andy - I think Pete Dye French Lick, Harrison Hills, Broadmoor, Trophy Club, and Kampen could all be up there for top 10 in state.

[John Kavanaugh]

Otter Creek, Christmas Lake, Sultans Run and the two I played this week, Cambridge and Quail Crossing are all possible top ten candidates for top ten.  At least in the fact I like them all more than Wolf Run.

[Tom Allen]

I've had the fortune to play CS, The Golf Club, Wolf Run (non-Dye of course), and Harbour Town.  My ranking: TGC, HT, CS, WR.  CS is a great course, and deserves it high ranking, but the TGC really blew it away.  HT is HT, with all that goes along with it.  I really enjoyed the difficulty of Wolf Run, but there is that special "something" (which is difficult to express) that it lacks.  Some really good holes, but not up to other course's standards and shot values, in my opinion.

[Eric_Terhorst]

The opinion lists of top courses is Indiana is a thread-jacking for those of us who haven't played Crooked Stick, but I'm compelled to chime in because none of you has mentioned French Lick Ross, which is my favorite among the Indiana courses I have played (Otter Creek, Sultan's Run, Kampen, Harrison Hills, and Warren). 

Difficult to top the land, routing, bunkering, great Ross greens, and a nice set of 3s on a course where Walter Hagen won the PGA.  The only negatives are the newly installed bright white cart paths and perhaps some similarity among the par 4s in the undulating terrain just below the clubhouse.

Last time I was there they had no fans next to the greens.

[David Stewart]

The opinion lists of top courses is Indiana is a thread-jacking for those of us who haven't played Crooked Stick, but I'm compelled to chime in because none of you has mentioned French Lick Ross, which is my favorite among the Indiana courses I have played (Otter Creek, Sultan's Run, Kampen, Harrison Hills, and Warren). 

Andy mentioned it above...

[John Kavanaugh]

I don't think you can answer how good is Crooked Stick without comparing it to the other courses in the region.  I've played French Lick Ross every year since 1975.  Had lunch there this week.  That being said I prefer Crooked Stick.  Of course I love The Dye course so much that I don't even want to play the Ross when I make the drive to French Lick.

One note on the Dye course and its myth of being overly expensive.  The people at the French Lick Resort are so generous with their comps that the course is inexpensive when compared to other great casino courses like The Wynn and Shadow Creek.  I would say the cost to play the Dye in required play is 1/10th of that of the Vegas greats.

[David Stewart]

John - In what kind of condition was Quail Crossing? I played it two summers ago when it was hot and was surprised to see the fairways in bad shape, especially since it is Bermuda. That course is a lot of fun, so I'm hoping it has turned around.

[John Kavanaugh]

John - In what kind of condition was Quail Crossing? I played it two summers ago when it was hot and was surprised to see the fairways in bad shape, especially since it is Bermuda. That course is a lot of fun, so I'm hoping it has turned around.

It was in fantastic shape.  It pissed me off to hear that just up the road in Indy the pros were playing lift clean and place while we played the ball down.  $29 including cart, a true jewel and a great opportunity to see some of the last greens personally shaped by the legend himself.

[Andy Troeger]

I like the Fort and all, but better than CS? Really?

Based on Ted's hole-by-hole match play, CS would still be slightly better. Which hole-by-hole results do you not like?


Andy - I think Pete Dye French Lick, Harrison Hills, Broadmoor, Trophy Club, and Kampen could all be up there for top 10 in state.

David,
I certainly don't expect everyone to agree with my listing. I haven't seen Harrison Hills or Trophy Club. Broadmoor I think gets too many bonus points for being a Ross. I think CC of Indianapolis and Meridian Hills are comparable--all good but probably not top ten. I like Coyote Crossing better than Kampen.

Eric,
I think the updates the resort made to the Ross Course made a huge difference. I didn't even like the course when I played it in the mid-90's and couldn't wait to get out of there to go to Sultan's Run. Now the Ross Course is really deserving of being among the best in the state.

But to make a half-hearted attempt to get back to Crooked Stick, I think its better than any of these courses being discussed for top ten. Its playable for a lot more golfers than Wolf Run, although its apparently not tough enough for the pros this week. I still like Wolf Run better personally but Crooked Stick seems to be more universally popular. Victoria National's property was far more interesting than Crooked Stick and Fazio did well with it.

[Andy Troeger]

Have Crooked Stick's greens been flattened over the years?

[Bart Bradley]

Have Crooked Stick's greens been flattened over the years?

It is certainly my impression that YES, they are much flatter now than when I lived in Indianapolis.

I think the course has really lost some of its nuance over the years.  Bummer.

Bart