"This is a good hole"

[JLahrman]

Happens to me all the time.  Usually they say, "This is a good par four."

I always say, "Well, it's a HARD par four."

Once I even had a guy respond, "That's what I said, it's a good par four."

I have asked people to explain their thinking enough to conclude that "good" has become a synonym for "hard."

I think it's all the numbnuts TV announcers saying things like, "This is a good driving hole," or "This is a good par four," when all they mean is that it's demanding, difficult, or unrelenting.

I have lately taken to telling them that good and hard are NOT interchangeable, and that it's easy to make a golf course hard, but it's hard as hell to make on that's interesting.

K

I agree with you.

But, most golfers (GCA dorks and otherwise) love the challenge of the game.

Like it or not, it's a score-driven game and making a par on a long par 4 is an opportunity to rise up and meet that challenge, if only for one hole, irrespective of whether of architecture is any good. Most amateurs don't make that many birdies, so parring a tough hole is as good as it gets for most of us.

I'm a 10 handicap. I'd rather have good architecture than a course that punches me in the face, but I do feel damn good if I can make a par on a tough hole.

If the TV announcers are equating a "good" driving hole with one that provides sufficient challenge for the pros, then by sliding the scale for relative ability, most airport runways would be a "good" driving hole for the average weekend hacker.

[Mark Johnson]

here was my original list...  my cutoff was around 440-450 so some of the holes mentioned didnt make it


Rush Creek 14, 16
Bent Creek 15
Windsong 15
Interlachen 8
Somerset 6
Spring Hill 2
Chaska 2


I know i missed some but my point is that they are hard to find and i had to really think to find some.

[Jason Topp]

I'm a 10 handicap. I'd rather have good architecture than a course that punches me in the face, but I do feel damn good if I can make a par on a tough hole.

Well stated.

[Rick Shefchik]

Adding to the list of good long par-4s in the Twin Cities, I think my home club, Stillwater CC, has two of them: holes 4 and 15. They happen to run parallel to each other.

They are our numbers one and two handicap holes (they would be reversed if 15 were not on the back nine), and man, does it feel good to hit a drive well enough to have an iron into either green, and then hit the green in regulation.

[Shane Wright]

"Long" is relative depending on the wind conditions.  Subconsciously, anytime I see a par 4 of 425 or more, I think long.

I think there are a bunch of really good 425-450 par 4's in the Twin Cities.  I could probably list a dozen or more pretty easily. 

I struggle to remember very many really good ones from 450-480ish.  I think the main reason is that most of the old classic designs keep them as par 5's on the card.  So par may drive the opinion a little bit if people think it is too easy of a birdie hole as a par 5. 

Number 7 at WBYC is listed as a par 5, but it is an awesome par 4 in my mind.  I think it is around 475. 

[Dan Kelly]

Adding to the list of good long par-4s in the Twin Cities, I think my home club, Stillwater CC, has two of them: holes 4 and 15. They happen to run parallel to each other.

They are our numbers one and two handicap holes (they would be reversed if 15 were not on the back nine), and man, does it feel good to hit a drive well enough to have an iron into either green, and then hit the green in regulation.

I like both holes -- but I like 15 considerably more than 4.

Maybe if I'd played 4 better, I'd have a different opinion.

But I think I'd still prefer 15. That is an exciting second shot.

I agree with Mark Johnson re: Chaska No. 2.

Chaska No. 11 might be added to the list.

[Patrick Hodgdon]

"Long" is relative depending on the wind conditions.  Subconsciously, anytime I see a par 4 of 425 or more, I think long.

I think there are a bunch of really good 425-450 par 4's in the Twin Cities.  I could probably list a dozen or more pretty easily. 

I struggle to remember very many really good ones from 450-480ish.  I think the main reason is that most of the old classic designs keep them as par 5's on the card.  So par may drive the opinion a little bit if people think it is too easy of a birdie hole as a par 5. 

Number 7 at WBYC is listed as a par 5, but it is an awesome par 4 in my mind.  I think it is around 475. 

The new(er) par-4 11th at Interlachen is actually a great example of this Shane. Now 450-475 depending on the tee played.

Like 7 at WBYC, I think #1 at Minneapolis Golf club would be an awesome par-4 as well at 475.