Encouraging walking

[John Kavanaugh]

What do people think about private clubs that require the use of either a caddy or cart at certain times (weekend mornings, for example) and charge a fee if you want to carry your own clubs?   

I think we all need to share the cost of the course but still have the right to choose how we want to play.  Carts cause less damage than walkers who don't fill divots. Charge everyone the same and get on with it.

[Wayne_Kozun]

What do people think about private clubs that require the use of either a caddy or cart at certain times (weekend mornings, for example) and charge a fee if you want to carry your own clubs?   

Are there really that many clubs in the US with this type of policy? 

Here in Canada that is unheard of, maybe since very few clubs still have caddies.  Even at some of the most "blue blood" clubs in the city of Toronto push carts are normal.  For example at Toronto GC their default it to put your clubs on a push cart.

[Mark Saltzman]

What do people think about private clubs that require the use of either a caddy or cart at certain times (weekend mornings, for example) and charge a fee if you want to carry your own clubs?   

Are there really that many clubs in the US with this type of policy? 

Here in Canada that is unheard of, maybe since very few clubs still have caddies.  Even at some of the most "blue blood" clubs in the city of Toronto push carts are normal.  For example at Toronto GC their default it to put your clubs on a push cart.

Wayne, I agree, unheard of in Toronto.  Which clubs have caddies at all? National and Toronto? Anything else?

I do think it's the norm at a lot of courses in the US.  My experience with courses around NYC and Philly is entirely with caddies.  I believe it's the same in Boston.  East Lake was the first course I played with this rule.

[Wayne_Kozun]

Hamilton probably has the strongest, most traditional caddie program with kids waiting for a loop on weekend mornings and Magna also has caddies.  I think I have seen them also at the Pulpit/Pbrush.

But maybe this is a way that Canada is a little more British than American?

[Colin Macqueen]

Gentlemen,

As Duncan, Wayne and Mark have mentioned it would seem mandating the use of caddies or motorised carts is a cultural idiosyncracy.  Perhaps NOT to do it is a Commonwealth trait!

Here in Australia I have only come across one instance in 45 years where it was dictated that a motorised cart be used and that was on a resort course with very long walks between green and tee.
As to caddies I have never, ever seen them on offer or even wee boys hanging around to tote your bag (surfing is free after all!). I don't think there is any sort of caddy program in Australia.

Can any of the other Aussies enlighten me as to if and where motorised golf cart usage is obligatory in Australia?

Cheers Colin

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:  There are very, very few private clubs in the Philly area that I know of that permit push/pull carts.  I can't think of one that would qualify as a great course, which I believe mine is.

Yes, I guess if people we able to walk separately they wouldn't have as much fun as being huddled together in a cart in the city of "brotherly" love.

[Matt Day]

Colin
Joondalup in Perth is mandatory carts unless you are a member, and probably half the members take carts. Not a true private course though.

Lake Karrinyup used to have a structured caddie programme in the 80's, and I used to also do a fair bit of caddying at Joondalup for the princely sum of $5-$10 a round as well. The best payer was Pat Burke at the 1987 WA Open who funded my high school graduation beer drinking sojourn to Margaret River 

[Kris Shreiner]

Tom,

That quote Jim mentioned was one source. I do want to point out that not all of these fatalties are on golf courses, just that the liability costs are real and a factor.

Archie,

You may well be right on that revenue equaling over half of your maintenance budget, but you are doing what most other operators do...putting that entire figure-WITHOUT all those other costs deducted... as ALL being profit, which simply isn't the case. Every facility has their own different structure, costs and needs. I'm not anti-cart. They have their role and a place in the game. Where I have the problem is the blanket propaganda of the SIGNIFICANT profit center carts are purported to be...there are a lot of "hidden" costs that are conveniently omitted. This skews the true reality. Carts may generate some profit...but not the pot of gold many industry folks claim.

Mike B,

Wow. That's some statement. I often like your take on things, but on this one I'll have to scratch my head and just assume you never had a quality caddie experience.

Matt D.,

Good to hear some war stories from some Aussie who caddied in-country. I've always wondered why caddie golf wasn't part of at least the top tier clubs down under. While I understand the independent DIY culture there, the courses have the quality there to have them. Guess culture and economics prevented it.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Connor]

Mike Keiser knows how to promote walking:

Build a tremendous seaside resort with spectacular views and even better architecture.

Don't have carts.

[archie_struthers]

 

Chris , There are certainly associated costs, as many know. They are greater than most  think when you factor in insurances and cart maintenance/purchase, damage, and paths.

There are other mitigating factors that almost mandate usage here in America...

Most people prefer riding... Yes it's true !
Some won't walk because of injury age or sloth
Pace of play is affected for the positive in most situations


It's a commentary on the masses , but walking is really fun, healthful and takes stress off the course, but it's not accepted in golf today . Notable exceptions do exist but they are anomalies.

[SL_Solow]

Here in the Chicago area, most private clubs mandate the use of a caddy or  motorized cart when available.  This policy is not related in any significant way to the revenus issue.  Rather, the clubs have decided that it is important to maintain a strong caddy program.  If those who wished to walk could choose carrying or a trolley, it is likely that the use of caddies would decline.  As between walking with a caddy or a cart, walkers will choose a caddy.  Similarly, we all support the Evans Scholar Foundation.  I concede that this limits the choices available to the individual club member and serves to increase the cost of the game, but it also introduces young people to golf and provides gainful employment to youth.  As the policy is disclosed to members in advance of their joining and because the policy is set by the membership, the limitation on choice is self - imposed.  I suggest the purposes are admirable.  At my club, if caddies are unavailable, trolleys are available.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike Keiser knows how to promote walking:
Build a tremendous seaside resort with spectacular views and even better architecture.
Don't have carts.

One look at Mike Keiser's rate structure will reveal why he doesn't 'need' to have golf carts.


Kris,
There are many different 'true realities' for golf courses when it comes to how much cart revenue can be seen as profit. Take a course in NY that I'm familiar with. The cost of their paths was 1.5 mil, installed. They've been there for 20 years and haven't needed replacing in that time (cost: less than 100k per year, including maintenance, and they are depreciable). They're curbed w/outlets to the fairway, so with a judicious use of rope they can keep carts on them when the course would otherwise be too wet to travel on. They've averaged around 35k rounds per year, only 10% of which were walking rounds, so even though the actual cart fee was, in essence, buried in the green fee the course took in over 500k in cart revenues their first year, and in every year since.

The owner ( a very sharp man who spent much of his life in the sand/gravel/concrete/asphalt business) told me that two weeks of every month paid for every cart-related bill he incurred, and the other two weeks went to him.

That's not an insignificant amount, but again, that was the true reality at his course.

[Garland Bayley]

Mike Keiser knows how to promote walking:
Build a tremendous seaside resort with spectacular views and even better architecture.
Don't have carts.

One look at Mike Keiser's rate structure will reveal why he doesn't 'need' to have golf carts.


...

That's about as misinformed a statement as you're going to find. 

[mike_beene]

Kris,I have had quality caddie experiences at private clubs but it seems my last resort and Scottish experiences have been with people who thought they were part of the show.My last Broadmoor caddie finally went in although I have had very good ones there as well.I like the bag carriers at St Andrews who are the trainees I guess.Still would rather push a trolley.I know that is not pure or popular but my wife says I am neither.

[Jim_Kennedy]

One look at Mike Keiser's rate structure will reveal why he doesn't 'need' to have golf carts.

That's about as misinformed a statement as you're going to find. 

This isn't about the ethos at BDR, it's just about the math. You don't need cart revenue when your peak season rate for ala carte golf is $275 ($230 if you spend more by staying at the resort) and you're attracting a significant number of players.

By the way, $275 is about 7 times the average price of a round (w/cart) in CT.

[archie_struthers]

 

Jim K ....precise cogent and to the point as your posts on revenue from carts . It is very significant for most operators in the USA>


In Gayland's defense perhaps he had his tongue quite firmly planted in cheek vis a vis Bandon et al.

[Garland Bayley]

Jim K ....precise cogent and to the point as your posts on revenue from carts . It is very significant for most operators in the USA>


In Gayland's defense perhaps he had his tongue quite firmly planted in cheek vis a vis Bandon et al.

Bandon charges what it charges simply because it can. It has nothing to do with carts. What has to do with carts is the damage they would do to the fescue.

Walk for your life.

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/easiest-way-live-longer

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bandon charges what it charges simply because it can. It has nothing to do with carts. What has to do with carts is the damage they would do to the fescue.

Walk for your life.

http://health.yahoo.net/experts/dayinhealth/easiest-way-live-longer

You're stating the obvious, we all know why there aren't any carts at BDR and we all know the benefits of walking. The obvious fact that you seem oblivious to is that some operations are perfectly capable of handling golf carts and they need the revenue generated by them.
 
Again, and I think this is painfully obvious, when a golf course has a relatively full tee sheet for most of its season and it charges $275.00 per round it has no need for the revenues it could glean from golf carts. 

 

[David_Elvins]

Does anyone know why carts make so much money?  

[Michael Goldstein]

Reading this thread it's good to be from down under. 

We pay our annual membership sub and then get on and play golf.

If you can't carry your own bag - invest in a pull cart for $100. 

If you can't push a cart - pay a fee each time you ride.

[Wayne_Kozun]

One look at Mike Keiser's rate structure will reveal why he doesn't 'need' to have golf carts.

That's about as misinformed a statement as you're going to find. 

This isn't about the ethos at BDR, it's just about the math. You don't need cart revenue when your peak season rate for ala carte golf is $275 ($230 if you spend more by staying at the resort) and you're attracting a significant number of players.

By the way, $275 is about 7 times the average price of a round (w/cart) in CT.

Mike Keiser also owns Cabot Links which is about half of Bandon and is in a great seaside location with no carts.

[Craig Disher]

Bandon charges what it charges simply because it can. It has nothing to do with carts. What has to do with carts is the damage they would do to the fescue.

You're stating the obvious, we all know why there aren't any carts at BDR and we all know the benefits of walking. The obvious fact that you seem oblivious to is that some operations are perfectly capable of handling golf carts and they need the revenue generated by them.
 
Again, and I think this is painfully obvious, when a golf course has a relatively full tee sheet for most of its season and it charges $275.00 per round it has no need for the revenues it could glean from golf carts.  

 

I'd guess the net profit on a cart round is just a few dollars - marginal comapared to the greens fee. I think carts are available primarily to attract customers, not for the extra revenue they bring in. In the US, golfers will tolerate walking a public course if it has special qualities - #2 and Bandon Dunes are obvious examples. Otherwise, if carts are unavailable most golfers will look elsewhere. And that applies both to public and private courses.

[Brent Hutto]

Craig,

You've hit on the reason why simplistic answers about cart revenue are misleading. It's why a line-item toting up of costs and revenue can not answer the question of "how much profit do carts produce". There are many, many, many golfers in the USA who are not going to play at a course where they can't ride. Maybe a round or two on a special occasion but these folks see golf as a game played using a golf cart.

So any accounting that does not factor in the customers (or members) who would never, ever play your course sans carts is nonsense. I am as anti-cart as any rational person could be (Dan King and Melvin Hunter Morrow excepted) but even I can see clearly that unless you're a Bandon Dunes level world-class destination it's about much more than the marginal revenue of one cart rented versus the marginal costs incurred for maintenance, damage to the course and so forth. Not many public courses or clubs can afford to turn away 40, 50, 60 percent or more of their potential, day-in, day-out business. Even if it gains them a few percent in the form of people like me who would seek out such a club.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I'd guess the net profit on a cart round is just a few dollars

You'd be right in some instances, and wrong in others.

 

[Craig Disher]

I'd guess the net profit on a cart round is just a few dollars

You'd be right in some instances, and wrong in others.

Are you working for the RNC perhaps?  You cut the rest of the sentence. It's obvious that if the cart fee is $50 then a much larger gain is realized than if the fee is $15-20.