[Tim Martin]

The best way to encourage walking I can think of would be to get rid of carts. No carts = no riding. You could keep a few on hand for people that are medically unable to walk a golf course, but otherwise just get rid of them all together. If they are leased (usually a percentage of new carts are rented every year) let the leases run out over time, slowly waning the membership off using carts ("sorry sir, we're all out of carts.") If carts are needed for a Monday outing, rent them and push the cost onto the group outing.

Sure, you'll loose members. But you'll gain a bunch too. Plus, the golf course would be in significantly better shape.

Pat-I am primarily a walker but don`t really care if someone wants to ride. That said I think when you ban golf carts you will lose more members than you will ultimately gain back. Culture is not easily changed when it has been in place for an extended period of time. Bandon can do it because the culture has always been "walking only".

[PCCraig]

The best way to encourage walking I can think of would be to get rid of carts. No carts = no riding. You could keep a few on hand for people that are medically unable to walk a golf course, but otherwise just get rid of them all together. If they are leased (usually a percentage of new carts are rented every year) let the leases run out over time, slowly waning the membership off using carts ("sorry sir, we're all out of carts.") If carts are needed for a Monday outing, rent them and push the cost onto the group outing.

Sure, you'll loose members. But you'll gain a bunch too. Plus, the golf course would be in significantly better shape.

Really, Pat?  I definitely agree that if a club changes to walking only, it will lose members.  I honestly don't believe it will gain any, and certainly not "a bunch".  I can see a portion of the membership at a place like, for example, Ballyneal enjoying the fact that the club is walking only, but is that really a deciding factor for people that choose to join?  Is the presence of carts at a club a deal breaker for a lot of people?  I just don't see it.

I just spent Labor Day weekend walking 36 holes a day at a club that allows carts.  For all but one of my rounds, everyone in our group(s) walked.  The other people on the course who chose to ride did not affect my enjoyment of the weekend in the slightest.  I just don't see how being walking only is something that would drive a great deal of membership.  And for the record, the course was in just about perfect condition.  Other than some visible cart track lines, I don't believe the carts had much if any impact on the course conditions. 

Bill,

In my experience, the best golf clubs with very strong walking programs (a couple of them being in Chicago) simply don't allow carts without a medical note. These clubs also have very active caddie programs, but also members who will walk the course without a caddie using a push cart or carrying. I was thinking of these clubs when I made my suggestion above.

Ultimately it comes down to the culture of the club. I understand why a golf retreat like Kingsley would need carts...guys who are on property want to play as much golf as possible while there. I was only responding to the first question which I assumed was a local golf club.

Walking vs. riding can also boil down to the type of golf course being played. You can take a cart almost anytime you want at my home course, but I would guess about 75% of rounds are walking. That's probably due to 1) the club's good caddie program, 2) the club's cart fee of $20/man (which is the same base pay for a "b" caddie), and 3) the golf course is easily walked as the greens and tees are very close with 18 holes averaging a 4.75-5.00 mile walk.

[Bill Seitz]

Pat, my issue was more with the "gain a bunch too" comment, and I guess the conditioning as well.  I just have a hard time believing there are a lot of people who have passed on joining a particular club because it allows carts (especially considering just about every club has carts).  Certainly a club that gets rid of carts will lose the member who only ever ride.  I just don't see people refusing to join clubs because they aren't walking only.  I think the very fine clubs of which you speak are probably the type of places with a waiting list and a number of people who would willingly join if spots opened up due to members leaving over the cart issue, but I doubt their decision is driven by a desire to join a walking only club. 

Also, if you have a good maintenance crew, and a responsible membership, it doesn't appear that carts do much damage to course conditions.  By that a mean a staff who enforces the 90 degree rule or (god forbid) cart path only when necessary, and a membership that follows those rules.  But that's a layman's opinion, obviously. 

[Wayne_Kozun]

I agree that getting rid of carts will cost you members, but don't forget that cart paths take a lot of the Greens budget to maintain, especially in areas where you have frost heaves.  I am on the Greens committee at my club and repaving cart paths, curbing, etc takes a fair bit of our budget.  Sure we got revenue from cart fees but I wonder what the true all-in cart economics would be, especially if you consider that you don't need all of the real estate to store carts, wash them, charge them up, etc.  And you don't have damage to the course caused by carts.  But once you have all of that it doesn't make sense to get rid of it, and you will cause lots of issues with your members if you do.

[Garland Bayley]

I agree that getting rid of carts will cost you members, but don't forget that cart paths take a lot of the Greens budget to maintain, especially in areas where you have frost heaves.  I am on the Greens committee at my club and repaving cart paths, curbing, etc takes a fair bit of our budget.  Sure we got revenue from cart fees but I wonder what the true all-in cart economics would be, especially if you consider that you don't need all of the real estate to store carts, wash them, charge them up, etc.  And you don't have damage to the course caused by carts.  But once you have all of that it doesn't make sense to get rid of it, and you will cause lots of issues with your members if you do.

Not to mention that the USGA says carts cost more than the revenue generated by them. They damage turf in addition to all the things you mention.

[Andy Stamm]

Andy,I think you spend 20 dollars for half a cart and a push cart is 10. There is very little cost in the cart upkeep.It is irritating that I have a push cart at home I can't use. However,that was the compromise it took to get the push carts.

Thanks.

That's certainly a steep push cart fee, but I can understand why. I bet it is a nice revenue stream at that price, because as you say the long term cost should be very low.

I'm struggling to understand how this increased walking. Did you formerly not allow push carts at all? If so, from my perspective a $10 fee is a vast improvement. But at that cost I'd be afraid that the logic might be that if you get a push cart, you're half way price-wise to a riding cart.

[mike_beene]

Previously no push carts.Most walkers carried own bag.Several attempts to revive a caddie program failed.The club looked down on push carts.It took other clubs doing push carts to get the leverage.We have had them a few years now. Carrying was starting to wear on my knees.I would have quit the club if the push carts had not passed.The problem is we pay back less than half the initial investment so 10 a month is a better alternative for me.Besides I really like the club and have been there almost 20 years.

[Andy Stamm]

Thanks Mike.

That explains it. I personally think a push cart makes walking much more enjoyable. I'd much rather have a $10 cart than nothing. And by charging a decent amount for it, maybe it takes away some of the stigma?

[mike_beene]

I think the 10 just shows the real issue was the lack of cart revenue if we got more walkersThe front is coming in an hour so every push cart in the club will be used.Summer ends in a few hours,from 104 today to 80 tomorrow!Riders will be in the minority in the morning!

[Jim_Coleman]

   I play a lot of golf - probably 250 rounds per year.  A cart costs me $30; a caddy $60.  I can't carry my bag any more because I'm fat and old, and even if I could, my club allows it only under very restricted circumstances.  Pull carts are banned altogether.  Taking a caddy each time would cost me an extra $7,500 per year, which I would prefer not to have to pay.  So, my policy is to walk when my companions are walking, and to ride when they prefer to ride.  I would say it breaks down to 85% riding, 15% walking.  If I played at a "walking only" club, I would walk, but I think it would annoy me.  I also suspect that the average income of members of "walking only" clubs (Merion, Pine Valley and Stonewall are three that come to mind around here) is substantially higher than clubs that offer carts, and, from my experience, caddies at walking only clubs receive higher fees ($80-$100).  The walking only public courses (Bethpage Black and Bandon Dunes come to mind) are unique.  Thus, I find you "walking only" people to be snobs.

[Kris Shreiner]

Great thread! First, I believe every golfer should have a choice in how they play their golf, weather and course condition issues excepted. That said, economics will ALWAYS factor into the equation. Some folks simply walk because they wish/need to because their financial circumstances dictate that. Some folks are just thrifty(cheap) and will ride/carry their own even though they can afford to take a caddie when available.

Humans are inherently lazy in the main, and give a choice, will opt for the easier option. Golf, particularly in America, has evolved into cart-ball because the industry folks have, for the most part, totally presented it as the way to go... for a variety of reasons.

Let's put one of the biggest myths in the game of golf to rest...the idea that carts are some sacred cow because they produce SIGNIFICANT revenue for the facility. When you factor in: their cost, the cost of the structure to house them, power costs, man hours maintaining, washing(wasting water!), and repairing the fleet, turf damage, accident liability costs(in the U.S. alone, there is on average, one cart related fatality per week!), costs to install and maintain the cart path most facilities have...that profit center gets MIGHTY SMALL...in a hurry. All of those HIDDEN costs are NEVER in the financial analysis.

As an ardent apostle for caddie golf, I not wade into ALL the benefits that dynamic has AND continues to contribute to the game, but there is no question that there is no comparison when one weighs the contributions to the game made by them vs. cart ball. It ain't even close!

If you love the game, respect it's history, and have the opportunity to play a facility with a quality caddie program...take a caddie. You'll be investing in supporting and sustaining it's most enduring constant!

Cheers,
Kris

[Tom_Doak]

There is one golf cart related fatality PER WEEK in the U.S.?

Kris, what's your source on that factoid?  I'm sure it's not E-Z-Go.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"News media always describe them as freak accidents, but they are not," said Kristopher Seluga, who works for Technology Associates, a Connecticut-based company that reconstructs accidents. "Somebody dies every week in this country from falling out of a golf cart."

......may be the inspiration for Kris' factoid, but the article this snippet came from relates to an accident, and other accidents, that happened on a street, not a golf course.

 

[Craig Disher]

I was on greens committees of two clubs where 60-70% of the rounds were in carts. When we saw the extra work we needed to do to repair cart damage and manage the fleet some of us didn't think they were that great a revenue source. However, getting rid of them was never an option - we would have lost too many members.

To encourage walking - remove the per person charge for carts and replace it with a cart charge, paid whether one or two golfers are in the cart. Even if cart use drops slightly (a good thing for the course), revenue might go up. Also, increase the cart fee to a point where it actually raises revenue. To soften the hit, the club can offer push carts for a modest yearly trail fee. Walking tournaments and prime-time hours set aside for walkers would also help but if the club doesn't have a strong corps of walkers to support the ideas, they have little chance of being implemented.

[Jon Byron]

Great suggestions.  And i agree.

[mike_beene]

Re the caddie issue,one of the things I love about a push cart is the relative silence and escape from the world for a few hours.Yes I talk to those I am playing with,but I also get those interludes of being on my own.With a caddie there is always someone next to you.I get that all week and just want a break.I would vote for,a push cart over a caddie any day.

[archie_struthers]

 

If we do 25,000 rounds of "cart ball" at $25 per round it's a half million in revenue.  That's more than half our maintenance budget.  I believe you guys are way off the mark on your damage and costs to operate.

Walking is awesome , but making it madatory is just not going to  fly at too many venues, it's just not  feasible for reasons other than revenue also.  The aging of our golf population is another.

[Duncan Cheslett]

This is clearly an issue of culture.

Here in the UK, the typical club will have 4-6 buggies available for hire mainly by elderly golfers or those suffering from an injury or disability. Guys of reasonable fitness taking a buggy are generally disparaged by onlookers and their manhood quietly called into question.

Most golfers I know view golf as thier main way of keeping fit. A five mile walk over 3-4 hours a couple of times a week is pretty close to a perfect fitness regime for a middle-aged man.  Whilst I would never dream of being judgemental over others' choices, it does strike me as extremely odd to hear of people whose only physical impairment is being fat bastards playing golf from a buggy rather than walking and getting rid of a little pork.

As for revenue considerations, typically in the UK electric trolley hire is £10 a round, and buggy hire £20.  The trolleys are far more profitable...

[Garland Bayley]

   I play a lot of golf - probably 250 rounds per year.  A cart costs me $30; a caddy $60.  I can't carry my bag any more because I'm fat and old, and even if I could, my club allows it only under very restricted circumstances.  Pull carts are banned altogether.  Taking a caddy each time would cost me an extra $7,500 per year, which I would prefer not to have to pay.  So, my policy is to walk when my companions are walking, and to ride when they prefer to ride.  I would say it breaks down to 85% riding, 15% walking.  If I played at a "walking only" club, I would walk, but I think it would annoy me.  I also suspect that the average income of members of "walking only" clubs (Merion, Pine Valley and Stonewall are three that come to mind around here) is substantially higher than clubs that offer carts, and, from my experience, caddies at walking only clubs receive higher fees ($80-$100).  The walking only public courses (Bethpage Black and Bandon Dunes come to mind) are unique.  Thus, I find you "walking only" people to be snobs.

Your club bans walking with a push cart and you think "walking only" people are snobs?  It seems to me your club is where the snobbery is. If you don't want to be a snob, join another club.

[Craig Disher]

If we do 25,000 rounds of "cart ball" at $25 per round it's a half million in revenue.  That's more than half our maintenance budget.  I believe you guys are way off the mark on your damage and costs to operate.

Walking is awesome , but making it madatory is just not going to  fly at too many venues, it's just not  feasible for reasons other than revenue also.  The aging of our golf population is another.

$25/rider would address the cart costs I referred to and provide additional funds for club expenses. But I think most clubs - certainly the ones I'm familiar with - $25 usually covers the cart with the riders splitting the cost. That would cut the revenue by 1/3 to a half.  Mandatory walking will work only at a very few clubs. I'm privileged to belong to one (pull carts are used by about half the membership) and age isn't an issue at all.  I think the resistance to walking at most clubs is primarily due to the universal availability of carts since the 1960s. How you grow up in the game greatly influences how you approach it throughout life.

[Martin Toal]

In the UK, few people take carts, although it is becoming a little more common, especially with the sort of younger golfers who go to the gym, wear long sleeved technical fabrics underneath polo shirts and play Taylor Made clubs.

Anyway, from playing cart golf in the US, the one thing that I most detest, is cart path only. That defeats the purpose of carts and the tiresome trudge laterally to the ball and back gives none of the enjoyment of proper walking and wastes all the time that should be saved by using carts. If I know a course is compulsory carts but is also cartpath only, then I am not interested. 

[Jim_Coleman]

Garland:  There are very, very few private clubs in the Philly area that I know of that permit push/pull carts.  I can't think of one that would qualify as a great course, which I believe mine is.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is no downside I know of other than cart revenues.

[Jim_Coleman]

You don't consider it a downside that many people will not be able to play?

[Neil Davis]

What do people think about private clubs that require the use of either a caddy or cart at certain times (weekend mornings, for example) and charge a fee if you want to carry your own clubs?   

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