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Paul Richards

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Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« on: April 26, 2003, 03:39:45 AM »
Can someone explain what happened to Golf Digest's list of top 20 courses from Minnesota? ???

Two changes from the 2001 list to the 2003 list stick out so blatantly that I have to wonder what happened.

First, I know that Minikahda is undergoing a restoration.  However, that hardly explains why it fell from #6 in the state all the way to #20.

What happened here?

Second, Northland had been #5 in the state in 2001.  The 2003 list doesn't even put them in the top 20! :-[

What did Northland do so wrong in two years that it fell at least 15 places in the state rankings? ??? ::) :'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

texsport

Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2003, 09:05:28 AM »
We all know that the GD lists are a joke! What about Giants Ridge not being in the top 10. It's clearly the best resort course in Minnesota and the new Quarry course may be the best course in the state,period.

I think that Wildflower near Detroit Lakes is the second best resort course.

Listing The Pines , Deacon's Lodge or Madden's above either Giants Ridge or Wildflower exposes the absurdity of their list for all to see. They obviously consider frills more important than the quality of the golf course in compiling their lists.

The same meaningless lists are published for all the states and are useless for anything other than a starting point for anyone unfamiliar with the area.

Texsport

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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Matt_Ward

Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2003, 11:49:45 AM »
Paul:

The questions you raised about Minnesota are virtually duplicated in a host of others -- just check out MI which has The Kingsley Club at #22 in the state ???. GD has added a great number of panelists in the last several years under the false impression that "more raters" will provide more insight. It doesn't work that way because many people who are now "rating" don't have the foggiest on what it is they are supposed to be doing. All that has happened is the sliding of such ratings towards a Zagat's Guide approach where Joe Sixpack and Mary Wineglass weigh in with their thoughts. You don't have the real elevation of quality -- you have the dumbing down outcomes that really quesiton the credibility of the entire process.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2003, 05:58:14 AM »
Matt:

You make a good point.  If Northland is no longer in the top 20, was Golf Digest so WRONG about it before that it was #5 in the state?

Are they wrong now or were they wrong before? ??? ::) :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2003, 06:39:41 AM »
Paul:

Minnesota is interesting in that there were virtually no courses of note built between 1930 and 1990, save Hazeltine.  The older courses should hold rather constant from list to list.  Interlachen, Minikahda, Rochester, Golden Valley, Minneapolis, Northland, Somerset, Woodhill, North Oaks, and White Bear are the class of this group.  Add in Hazeltine and you have 11 that should be rather static.

Like much of the country, an absolute boom has occurred since 1990.  The Pines at Grandview, the redesign of Scottdale, the TPC in Blaine, the Wilds, Jeff Brauer's courses, Madden's new design, Deacon's Lodge, and Chaska Town are a few that come to mind.

To show you how the timeline has affected thinking on the GD state list, take a look at how far The Pines at Grandview Lodge has fallen as there were more new courses to compare it to.  Put simply, it benefitted from uniqueness to start out and fell as it wasn't so special any more.  The more playmates you have in the room, the more critical you become about the first one.  (Like I've ever hung out with playmates, but it sounded right.)

Fast forward to the late 90s and Bearpath, a very mediocre Nicklaus design.  It was the state's first real big gated-community development and "Floridaized" their perspective.  With literally 100s of places just like it here, it'd barely make 3rd or 4th decile.  Yet it was something like #4 in state a few years back.  Some year the list will come out and it won't be on there at all.  

In defense of Northland, they probably have a shorter season than any other top course in America.  They start a full two weeks later and end about two weeks earlier than clubs in the Twins.  Perhaps nobody played it the month it was in great shape!?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2003, 12:31:13 PM »
John:

Your answer is as good as any I've seen in regards to Northland.  

However, in its defense, it has been #3 in state by Golf Digest in 1995, fell to #4 in 1997, and stayed at #5 in 1999 and 2001 before dropping all the way out of the top 20 on their latest list!

How can that possibly be? ??? ::) :-[
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

John_Conley

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2003, 12:40:18 PM »
Your questions must be rhetorical, because I don't think there is any answer you will be satisfied with.  I leave it at "the list isn't really that good" like Matt said and move on.

Can I end all my sentences with a preposition?  (I guess not.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Rick Shefchik

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2003, 01:22:48 PM »
Paul -- I posted on this subject when the rankings came out. Northland just completed a 3- or 4-year renovation last summer, in time for the annual Invitational, in which I've been playing for more than 20 years.

Last August the course was the best I'd ever seen it; new bunkers, new bridges, new tees and even a few less trees (mostly for the sake of the spectacular view of Lake Superior from the 14th tee. #14 is now a par 4, by the way; it formerly played as a very short par 5, but the new equipment made the change to a par 71 unavoidable.)

Players who'd been coming up from the Twin Cities for decades raved about the course at last year's Invitational, but there were far fewer of them in attendance than there normally would be because the PGA was being played at Hazeltine the following weekend. I don't know if this kept a lot of raters from seeing the course at its new peak, but it might explain Northland's drop-off. Anyone coming up to Duluth to play the course in the few years prior to last summer might not have enjoyed the experience of playing around closed-off bunkers and sections of fairway while the work was being done.

I hope the raters give Northland another look this year. Barring lousy conditions (Duluth summers can throw some kinks at the best of greenskeepers), I can't imagine Northland not getting back into Minnesota's Top Ten, where it belongs.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:04 PM by -1 »
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"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Paul Richards

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2003, 06:36:57 PM »
John:

You are probably right as well when you say:
>Your questions must be rhetorical, because I don't think there is any answer you will be satisfied with.

I just finished the Ohio list and found, much to my chagrin, what others had mentioned before, that Brookside and Sharon were as good as #10's and #11 in 2001, but in 2003 they aren't even in the top 25 in the state?  What went so wrong at these two courses that they got "Northlanded"? ??? ::) :-[

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

W.H. Cosgrove

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2003, 09:22:10 AM »
With all of the discussion of Minnesota courses, what has become of Fazio's Spring Hill?

When it opened, Spring hill was impossibly difficult.  I thought it would be a darling of Golf Digest raters and their resistance to scoring category.  

It has also become evident that many changes have been undertaken since the course opened.  These adjustments are purported to have softened the course, which to Fazio's defense was a pretty demanding piece of property.  The owners and Superintendent were working hard in the first years to improve the user friendliness of the course.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Scott_Burroughs

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2003, 11:23:18 AM »
John,

I think Sand Hills may have a shorter season.  Supposedly only open June-Sept/Oct.  Not that they couldn't play longer....

The Broadmoor in the Colorado Rockies probably has a shorter season, though it may not be considered "top" these days.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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John_Conley

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2003, 11:55:20 AM »
Sand Hills has a shorter season by choice.  Northland would probably love to have SH weather.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Richards

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2003, 12:45:01 PM »
Cos:

Spring Hill is ranked fourth in state by GD on this latest list.  It is an excellent golf course and I have commented here on GCA previously that it has one of the best set of five pars on any course I have seen - especially of the modern variety.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Logged
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ChipRoyce

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2003, 08:17:45 PM »
Am traveling quite a bit to Minneapolis area... any GCA'ers interested in a game next time I'm in town? (9 index)
Chip
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff Shelman

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Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2003, 09:53:42 PM »
I've been meaning to put in my $.02 for a bit on this one for a few days and I'm not sure how to go about it.

I think the top of the list is pretty solid. Interlachen, Hazeltine, Yacht Club, Spring Hill (though I haven't played it), Classic, Somerset, Minneapolis and Woodhill is a pretty good start. One could maybe quibble a bit by a spot or two on some of these, but it's certainly a good start.

But after that, the list is a bit disjointed. There are courses ranked too high, courses that shouldn't be ranked at all and certainly some courses that are missing.

The two that I think are missing are clearly Northland and Oak Ridge. I played Northland last summer two days after the PGA and it was fabulous. The golf course was in fabulous shape, especially the greens. Turning the short backside par 5 into a long par 4 was a good one. Etc. Not only should it be in the top 20, it should be in the top 10.

Regarding Oak Ridge, I think it's the most underrated course in the Twin Cities and IMO it's a top 10 course in the state. The routing is great, the par 4s are extremely challenging (especially 8, 9, 17 and 18) and the course is resistant to scoring.

Minikahda is also too low.

I truly don't think the Wilds is No. 11, Willingers isn't a top 20 course and neither is Bearpath. The TPC course is pretty good for a TPC, but it isn't a course I'd want to play on a regular basis.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Jeff_McDowell

Re: Minnesota - state list from Golf Digest
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2003, 09:40:21 AM »
It's interesting to see the comment about more raters in a certain area. I've often thought a number of suspect courses in MN and ND get fairly high rankings. I've wondered if this didn't have something to do with a lot of raters in the area.

ChipRoyce - Next time you're in town, give me a try. I'd love to meet another GCAer.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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