Is the answer blowing in the wind ? # 1

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was thinking about prevailing winds and their potential influence on the configuration of greens.

If I/you were designing a course swept by prevailing winds, what type of greens (including surrounds) would you design on holes that play

1.     Downwind
2.     Into the wind
3.     Right to left
4.     Left to right

1.     Downwind I thought that a double plateau, similar to the 11th at NGLA would be ideal.
        It presents three (3) putting surfaces on separate tiers, two elevated above the "floor" tier.
        The "floor" and back tier are ideal for being approached on the ground.
         The "floor" tier has a mild punchbowl flavor to it.
        The left side elevated tier can be approached via the ground, but requires more precision.

There's plenty of challenge and it's a lot of fun trying to get to the right tier.
The "floor" tier is the easiest to attain.

If someone could post an aerial of # 11 it would be helpful.

Let's keep the discussion on # 1.

The others will follow.

What green configurations would you craft on a hole where the prevailing wind is at your back ?

[Mark Saltzman]

Not a green configuration, but I'd like to see cross-bunkering short of the green on downwind holes.

[Anthony Butler]

Pat-Good thread... and great thread title... Although you are aware that Bob Dylan wrote "Masters of War' right?

[Joe_Tucholski]

Here's the requested aerial




To answer the question on the type of green for a given wind, in my mind comes down to the approach to the green.  Isn't it safe to say the longer the approach the larger the green?  I also figure with a downwind hole it is going to be harder to stop the ball, so it makes sense to allow for this fact by having an open front to the green, a longer green, a back to front slope, tiers or some other method to assist in stopping the ball.  It doesn't make much sense to have a small green with a bunker fronting the green unless the approach is from a short distance.  

Thomas said in Golf Architecture in America "Down the prevailing wind, or down hill, give the player, as a rule, the running shot, with a green narrow in width and great in depth, for the running ball feels the wind but little; and here the architect may insist on direction rather than exact distance."  Interestingly enough he then goes on to say that on holes where a running shot is expected there can be mounds or a slope away from the player, which is the opposite of what I would have thought for down wind holes.  I would have thought you would want assistance stopping the ball because it will be more difficult for the player to stop the ball.

[Joe_Tucholski]

I realized that when I asked the question about longer approach means larger green that probably won't be agreed upon and will be shot down as having required ratio's that don't account for differing skill.  Instead I'll change it to isn't it safe to say the more difficult the approach the larger the hazard free area around the hole.  Basically taking that from a Doak quote in Anatomy of a Golf Course where he said "The relationship which matters most is not the size of the green versus the length of the approach, but the size of the hazard-free area around the hole versus the difficulty level of the approach."

[Nigel Islam]

I always feel that short par 4s with greens that slope from front to back seem to be challenging.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Joe,

Any chance you could add a zoomed in photo of the green and insert that photo beneath the higher photo of the hole.

Thanks

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I thought about exactly this question when we were designing The Rawls Course for Texas Tech University.  It was a very flat site that offered no real design ideas, other than the difficult winds that blow across it.  So, we went with the wind as our guide.

Two of the greens that I tried to use on downwind holes were:

#10  is an Eden hole; I thought it would be interesting to have an Eden where you couldn't really fly the ball over the Strath bunker, but had to use the entrance to the green to run one in.  That may be one of the most difficult holes I've ever built, it's a real bear.

#17  is a longish par 5 that is reachable when downwind.  I tried to build a green there like the 15th at Piping Rock, the one with the mound snaking across the green, so that to get to a back hole location you would have to hit a low shot to the front of the green and let it run up over the ridge -- whether it was your second shot, or your third.  But, we built the ridge a bit higher than we needed to, and it came out pretty difficult.  I'd like to try that idea again somewhere, someday.  Thanks for reminding me of it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

That's funny as I also had the Eden hole in mind for a par 3 downwind hole,  probably due to it's elevation, size and the backstop like slope of the putting.

It's also interesting to note that CBM thought his Eden was better than the original because a topped shot would meet a watery grave.
Yet, running shots that carry the water on # 13 fare well when the turf is firm.

[Doug Siebert]

One of my favorite holes in the area is this one:

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=41.804382,-91.474083&spn=0.001631,0.002433&t=h&z=19&lci=com.panoramio.all

It's a par three of 185 yards from the back tee on the bottom of the screen to the green on the top.  I really wish you could see the topography here since it is pretty neat, but I'll try to describe it.  It plays quite steeply downhill, maybe a 50 foot drop.  The short grass in front of the green falls away and to the right, and the green itself has two tiers roughly divided in the middle with the front half several feet higher than the back and also falling away from you.  The back half is fairly level.  If you miss the green to the sides your ball may be 3-4 feet below the level of the green in the front right, increasing to 10-15 feet below your feet on either side or behind on that lower back tier.

This hole typically plays with the wind, and because of that, the fact you're hitting a short iron from the top of a ridge to a landing area that runs away from you it is quite difficult to land your ball on the front half of the green and keep it there if the greens are even somewhat firm, so you want to land it short and a bit left.  But don't pull it, or you'll find that little stand of trees.

It's also pretty nasty when the wind turns around, because hitting 185 off the top of a ridge exposed to the wind to a green that looks awfully damn narrow with the falloffs on either side makes one a bit twitchy on the tee.  Or at least it does me!

This is not a hole that will lead to a lot of big numbers, but it is a good round wrecker that can give you a quick double without having to hit any really bad shots.  Coming after another nasty par 3 and a long par 5 played into the wind to a crazy green, it is sort of the "Amen Corner" of this course...

I tried multiple times to embed the image but I guess I can't remember how anymore.  Can someone refresh my memory?

[Patrick_Mucci]

So what holes would seem to be ideal into the wind ?

[Jason Topp]

So what holes would seem to be ideal into the wind ?

I enjoy a short shot into the wind that needs to fly to a particular length.  It tests your ability to hit the ball solidly, control the trajectory and control sidespin.  If you do all of that, there is a lot of room for error.  If not, you are screwed.  I liked the short par 4 on the back at Pennard (12) for this reason.  Many others thought it was a weak hole but I bet they did not score too well on it. 

[Greg Tallman]

So what holes would seem to be ideal into the wind ?

100-140 yard par three, small green and very difficult recovery.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Greg,

I'd agree, a small green on an into the wind short hole seems to be an ideal combination.

The 11th at Westhampton would seem the perfect fit.

Conversely, the short at NGLA is downwind from an elevated tee, but the huge green is compartmentalized into smaller sections.

[Carl Nichols]

So what holes would seem to be ideal into the wind ?

100-140 yard par three, small green and very difficult recovery.

But not completely dead (e.g., water) if you miss.  Too easy for bad players to miss wildly into the wind.

[Greg Tallman]

Greg,

I'd agree, a small green on an into the wind short hole seems to be an ideal combination.

The 11th at Westhampton would seem the perfect fit.

Conversely, the short at NGLA is downwind from an elevated tee, but the huge green is compartmentalized into smaller sections.

Our new 7th on The Ocean Course can be maddening in a good wind. Plays 99 to 139 with the normal wind from 11 o'clock. Green is about 4500 Sq ft and misses are pretty much beach or dune. Perfect hole IMO.

Another wonderful example is the 16th at Diamante where the wind is always a factor. Plays from 110 to 165 dead into the teeth of the wind. Have played in many times from about 135-140 knowing that anything on the green is a very, very good result. Have watched more than one poorly struck attempt hook its way over toward the 17th tee. Really good, hard, short, into the wind golf hole.

[Rick Shefchik]

Front hole locations playing downwind are very difficult. A number of holes at Lawsonia have the perfect green design for that kind of shot: slightly raised, so a shot can be played intentionally short and bounce up to get close to the pin. If the front of the green is too steep, that shot becomes impossible; too flat and you take a lot of the finesse out of the shot.

For a shot into a prevailing wind, you can always go with a false-front green, if you don't mind slowing up play and pissing off a lot of golfers.