[Wade Whitehead]

#2 @ Ballyhack

WW

[Dan Herrmann]

French Creek #9.  Here's a photo:  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FrenchCreek/pages/page_84.html

[Joe Bausch]

French Creek #9.  Here's a photo:  http://myphillygolf.com/uploads/bausch/FrenchCreek/pages/page_84.html

That hole is too easy Danno.

[Jamey Bryan]

Wade, 2 at Ballyhack was the first hole I thought of when I saw the thread.  Especially since the preferred line is counter-intuitive.

I love the hole.  (and the club)

Jamey

[Wade Whitehead]

Jamey:

The diagonal created by the three centerline bunkers is utterly genius.

It may be my favorite tee shot in the world.

WW

[Carson Pilcher]

#5 at Cuscowilla.  Great short par 4.  You can hit it right of the bunker which is easier off the tee, but then your angle is into the shallow angle of the green and from a lower level of fairway.  If you take the tougher route to the left with your tee shot, you are on the same level with the green and have the length of the green for your approach.

[Mike Nuzzo]

Howdy Tim

Is this a new hole or renovation?
New course or a renovation/reconfiguration?

Why are you putting a berm between the lake and fairway?
Sounds like you already have your hazard, why do you need the bunkers?
I picture the green rewarding a tee shot towards the berm.

Cheers

[Bill_McBride]

Howdy Tim

Is this a new hole or renovation?
New course or a renovation/reconfiguration?

Why are you putting a berm between the lake and fairway?
Sounds like you already have your hazard, why do you need the bunkers?
I picture the green rewarding a tee shot towards the berm.

Cheers

Mike, how wide are the left and right fairways from the centerline bunker at Wolf Point #2?

How many shots have you seen holed from that bunker?   

[Bill Brightly]

Can't believe this thread went this far without someone mentioning Pac Dunes #2

[Neil White]

Can't believe this thread went this far without someone mentioning Pac Dunes #2

It didn't.

Sean Leary called it yesterday.

[Rich Goodale]

I'm not sure of Pac Dunes #2, for four reasons:

1.  due to significant the R->L slope from the centreline bunker to the left hand bunker, you really do not have a bail out left option, unless you lay up
2.  Likewise, the right hand side is realy not a place to be, so either laying up or bombing it there is a non-option
3.  So, the only real option is to lay up left or try to carry the centreline bunker, which takes a flat-belly swing to do successfully
4.  And, most importantly, Tom Doak did not place that bunker, the car parking valet ("Shoe") did.  As long as that bunker stays there, PD will be a "Doak, Urbina, Shoe" course, which will vex future historians if this poast in not archived.

Rich

Disclaimer--last time I played PD (KP 2011) I nutted my drive and found my ball embedded in the face of the Shoe Bunker.  But that trauma has had absolutely no effect on my analysis above.  I'm too professional for petty rancour.....

rfg

[hhuffines]

The 18th at Banff Springs... As fun a hole as I've played.

[Kevin Lynch]

Jamey:

The diagonal created by the three centerline bunkers is utterly genius.

It may be my favorite tee shot in the world.

WW

+1
I wasn't sure if I should post it since Tim seemed to want feedback on a par 4.  Definitely one of the best examples i have ever seen.

[Kevin Lynch]

#13 at Bethpage Red is a nice example too.

Good call!

The only reason I don't like BP Red as an example is that there doesn't appear to be a safe alternative which features a trade-off for your second shot.

In my mind, this doesn't give the hole a strategic choice.  Rather, the bunker simply makes for two really narrow fairways.  The preferred line is to go down the left fairway, as it is a big advantage on the approach.  There is no reason at all to think about the right fairway, since it's just as small a target.

If they cleared out some rough to the right and short of the bunker, I think it would give a definite option of taking less risk off the tee in exchange for a tougher angle on the approach.  I may have to check out Historic Aerials to see if the alternate fairway has been narrowed over the years.
 
UPDATE:  Just checked out the historical images, and it appears this hole was never meant to be a centerline bunker.  In the 1953, 1966 and 1980 aerials, there was just the left fairway.  However, I still think it could work if the grassing lines were moved out on the right side.

[Phil McDade]

Kevin:

What's the yardage on this? In particular, can anyone within reason try to carry the middle bunker complex? If not, than this is a hole with a divided fairway, which to me isn't truly a centerline bunker. I mean, the thing could be a pond, or waste junk, and still have the same tactical impact on the golfer.

[Philip Caccamise]

Kevin:

What's the yardage on this? In particular, can anyone within reason try to carry the middle bunker complex? If not, than this is a hole with a divided fairway, which to me isn't truly a centerline bunker. I mean, the thing could be a pond, or waste junk, and still have the same tactical impact on the golfer.

No, you can't- it's about 325 over. But I disagree with the notion that the right side doesn't accomplish what it's supposed to- even if you bail there and miss the fairway, it's not a terribly penal rough area, but the approach gets progressively harder the farther right you bail out. If you sneak it between the trees and the bunker, you are left with a very straightforward approach. However, pull it left into the trees and bogey is a good score. Laying up in front of the bunker is definitely an option as well, but leaves a long approach.

[Matthew Petersen]

I like the 13th at WeKoPa (Saguaro).

Also #2 at Wildfire (Faldo) in Phoenix.

[Garland Bayley]

#17 at Bully Pulpit.

[Brian Colbert]

The only reason I don't like BP Red as an example is that there doesn't appear to be a safe alternative which features a trade-off for your second shot.

In my mind, this doesn't give the hole a strategic choice.  Rather, the bunker simply makes for two really narrow fairways.  The preferred line is to go down the left fairway, as it is a big advantage on the approach.  There is no reason at all to think about the right fairway, since it's just as small a target.

If they cleared out some rough to the right and short of the bunker, I think it would give a definite option of taking less risk off the tee in exchange for a tougher angle on the approach.  I may have to check out Historic Aerials to see if the alternate fairway has been narrowed over the years.

Kevin,

Have you played Bethpage Red? I played about 10 rounds there spread across my four years of college, and the right side was way more safe of an option off the tee than the left. At Bethpage, they admirably do not grow the rough out particularly long, so the result of a missed shot is still a wide open approach to the green out of relatively thin rough. That said, Bethpage does an incredible job of maintaining their facility in a firm and fast presentation, so holding the green from this side is not an easy proposition by any means. Meanwhile, a miss off the left side of the fairway leaves the player in a cluster of trees from which a bogey is almost certain. I think it's a great example of a split hole and even though the fairway itself is narrow on either side of the bunkers, there are clear strategic reasons behind playing to either side of the fairway. On that note though, I would thoroughly agree with the statement that the hole could be improved if they doubled the size of the fairway to the right and extended it all the way to the fescue which borders the hole.

[John Kirk]

First one I thought of that I like a lot is the 1st at Rock Creek Cattle Company.  Strategic golf hole.

Picture stolen from Peter Ferlicca.

[Kevin Lynch]

Kevin,

Have you played Bethpage Red? I played about 10 rounds there spread across my four years of college, and the right side was way more safe of an option off the tee than the left. At Bethpage, they admirably do not grow the rough out particularly long, so the result of a missed shot is still a wide open approach to the green out of relatively thin rough. That said, Bethpage does an incredible job of maintaining their facility in a firm and fast presentation, so holding the green from this side is not an easy proposition by any means. Meanwhile, a miss off the left side of the fairway leaves the player in a cluster of trees from which a bogey is almost certain. I think it's a great example of a split hole and even though the fairway itself is narrow on either side of the bunkers, there are clear strategic reasons behind playing to either side of the fairway. On that note though, I would thoroughly agree with the statement that the hole could be improved if they doubled the size of the fairway to the right and extended it all the way to the fescue which borders the hole.

Yes, I have played it four times, spread out over 10 or so years.

I suppose you are correct, in that the left trees are far more punitive than right rough.  But, if that is the tradeoff, I wouldn't hold this hole up as a good example of a centerline hazard design.  In that case, it's really the punitive left trees that are dictating your strategy, rather than the centerline hazard.

Like at many courses in the Northeast, the hole has been clogged by overzealous tree-planting.  I'd rather that Bethpage restore some teeth to the rough (and take out many of the left trees), and then double the size of the right fairway (as you had suggested).  In that case, there would be a much safer option off the tee (with a corresponding trade-off on the approach).

Having said all that, the Historic Aerials of this hole suggest that the intent was never to be a centerline hazard.  Rather, it looks like another example of the diagonal landing areas that Tillinghast left throughout the entire Bethpage complex.  Depending on your length off the tee, you had to select the proper line so as to not drive through the fairway and into the hazard on the far side.  I'm not sure what this type of hole is called ("reverse cape?").

In a way, the original design (as far as I can tell) reminds me more of #2 on the Black.  The hill and trees on the right sit at an angle to the tee, and demand you consider both your distance and line.

[Scott Weersing]

There are two holes at Ballyneal with centerline bunkers. No. 7 has a centerline bunker but most players play out to the right of it.

The best hole with centerline bunkers at Ballyneal is no. 13 that gives the player options of going left, for a more direct line at the green, or going right, but not an ideal angle to the green.

See photos of no. 13 here: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/ballyneal/ballyneal-co-usa/ballyneal-co-usa-3/

[Jason Thurman]

I love centerline bunkers, but I'm not sure I love the sound of the ones suggested in the original post. 200 yards out is really short anymore for most players better than a 12 or 15 handicap. Seems to me like you're forcing the weakest players to take on a very difficult shot (either around the bunkers, or laying up short of them and leaving a long iron or wood into a short par 4) while anyone with reasonable ability to hit the ball solidly is never even going to consider them while standing on the tee.

Like others, I like to see the bunkers in the driving zone for everyone where a player has to pick a side or attempt a VERY bold carry.

[J_ Crisham]

#1 at NGLA and #1 at Eastward Ho are two of my favorites- unfortunately I've been in both with the tee ball.

[Jim Hoak]

I loved the old cross-bunkering at many holes at Yale, and the course was substantially diminished when most were removed to make it more "playable"!!

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