Mackenzie Green Plans for Crystal Downs exist!

[Neil_Crafter]

I recently purchased a copy of the book "Golf's Grand Designs" by Bob Cupp and Ron Whitten, the companion book to the PBS documentary of the same name. Lo and behold on the cover is one of Mackenzie's green plans for Crystal Downs, the 12th, reproduced in colour. Four more are inside, but B&W only.

Seems Ron purchased a suitcase of documents and photos from Perry Maxwell's family some years ago, and the green plans for CD - unfortunately not a full set sadly - were contained therein.

Quite a wonderful find, as it was commonly thought - but erroneously as it turns out - that these plans were long lost.

[Ed Oden]

Beautiful!  Congratulations Neil!

[Neil_Crafter]

cheers Ed.
No congratulations due to me, but was still excited to find them in this book 

[Pat Burke]

Thanks for posting these Neil

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks for alerting me to the book Neil... Which I have just ordered... Always nice to see green sketches with 6 foot elevation changes as well...

[Chris Clouser]

I'll be looking to see how these compare to the actual greens shortly.

[Tom_Doak]

Hmm ... I had heard these diagrams were in the book, though I didn't know the source.

The color diagram is absolutely NOT of the 12th green at Crystal Downs -- or at least, the green is absolutely nothing like that at all.  I don't think it could even be the same green site.  It reminds me of one of the Pasatiempo drawings printed in an old reprint of GOLF ARCHITECTURE, with the name changed.

Of the others:

 the 11th is nowhere close to the green depicted (although it is very steep so this may be MacKeznie's diagram).
the 13th is not the same green site (there is a fall-off to the right of the green, not a hillock)
the 17th might be the same green site, or might be a different one, as there has always been a rumor that MacKenzie's hole ended in a different spot; but
the 18th green is pretty much as depicted.

So, one out of five ain't bad?

From the beginning, I have always thought that MacKenzie had much more influence on the front nine greens than the back, and might have seen those first few greens under construction if he made a second visit to the property [about which there are conflicting stories].  But no one thinks he ever saw the back nine built, so it's possible that Maxwell put those plans in his trunk very early on and never let anyone else see them! 

[Chris Clouser]

Tom,

I had heard rumors that Maxwell also moved the 18th green from the original planned site which was supposedly situated between the pro shop and clubhouse.  Have you ever heard those rumors?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom,

I had heard rumors that Maxwell also moved the 18th green from the original planned site which was supposedly situated between the pro shop and clubhouse.  Have you ever heard those rumors?

Chris:

I've heard that the hole was supposed to be different, and tee off up near the bluff, north of the clubhouse and the valley where the 18th green is now, up on top of the hill on the other side.  But I have never really understood how either this hole or the 17th would have worked with the roads and the lots.  The green sketch above and its proximity to the road look to me like MacKenzie was doing a drawing for the present green location.  But, perhaps the sketches for the back nine greens were drawn in his second visit, and he and Maxwell together re-routed 17 and 18 from an earlier plan.

[Neil_Crafter]

Tom
Enjoyed your contribution - no-one knows both Mackenzie and Crystal Downs as well as you.

I am not too surprised by the lack of apparent matching between the green plans and the actual greens, as this was the gist of the discussion between Ron Whitten and Bob Cupp in the book.

Whitten did say in the book that anecdotally when he first visited the course that he had heard from an old timer named Ron Haswell, who said he worked on the construction crew for Maxwell. Ron remembered seeing Mackenzie on site at least once but could hardly understand him due to his thick Scots accent, and that Mackenzie got into an argument with Maxwell because Maxwell had shifted the 17th green on him. Which would seem to suggest that Mackenzie may have visited at least once while the back nine was being built.

[Tom_Doak]

Neil,

I met Ron Haswell, too, the second time I was there, in 1986.  We talked mostly about Perry Maxwell, whom he remembered quite vividly, having worked alongside him during construction.  He said mostly what Maxwell did all day was to walk around and observe what the crew were working on -- from twenty yards away, from a hundred yards away, and from halfway across the course.  I do the same thing, but it must have gone slower back then!

Mike DeVries worked with Ron Haswell on the maintenance crew for a while, so perhaps he can chime in a bit more on whatever Ronnie said about MacKenzie.

[Neil_Crafter]

Very interesting Tom that you met old Ron too. Must have been fascinating to have talked with someone who worked for Maxwell. Love the description of Maxwell walking around.
Yes, lets hope Mike chimes in.

[JC Urbina]

Neil,

A side note to the Mackenzie sketches.  Press Maxwell in an interview I did with him years ago said that one of his family members was a painter and that she did paintings of the holes after they were done for his dad Perry.  I tried to verify that story but could not come up with anything to confirm that some of the actual paintings had been done.

I have some of the sketches from Pasatiempo that resemble the same colored renderings  you posted and most of them are not even close to the actual greens contours and in most cases the elevations were way out of whack with what actually existed.

[Neil_Crafter]

Jim
Now they would be nice to see

The Mackenzie green plans that Pasatiempo have are very similar and like you say, the heights seem exaggerated. They are almost caricatures in a way. And if the greens at Pasa are not all that similar to his green sketches on a course where Mackenzie spent a good deal of time in construction, then at a place like Crystal Downs where he visited infrequently and had another architect interpreting them, I guess its no surprise that the final greens don't show all that much resemblance to the plans.

[Sean_A]

These sketches remind me of Simpson's.  Many are highly exaggerated artistic versions of what exists or what may never have been built.  They look nice though.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Jim
Now they would be nice to see

The Mackenzie green plans that Pasatiempo have are very similar and like you say, the heights seem exaggerated. They are almost caricatures in a way. And if the greens at Pasa are not all that similar to his green sketches on a course where Mackenzie spent a good deal of time in construction, then at a place like Crystal Downs where he visited infrequently and had another architect interpreting them, I guess its no surprise that the final greens don't show all that much resemblance to the plans.

Neil:

Jay Morrish told me that back when he worked for Desmond Muirhead, he and the contractor they worked with (Keith Dewar) had an agreement that they would build all the greens with half the amount of pitch that Desmond had specified, and if he asked about it, lie to him that the pitch was correct.   I think some of MacKenzie's associates probably did the same thing.

[Ally Mcintosh]

These sketches remind me of Simpson's.  Many are highly exaggerated artistic versions of what exists or what may never have been built.  They look nice though.

Ciao

Let's be honest though. The Simpson ones are much more artistic and beautiful than those ones above.

[Neil_Crafter]

These sketches remind me of Simpson's.  Many are highly exaggerated artistic versions of what exists or what may never have been built.  They look nice though.

Ciao

Let's be honest though. The Simpson ones are much more artistic and beautiful than those ones above.

Ally
Isn't that a bit like saying Monet's landscape paintings are "less artistic" than Turner's because you prefer Turner's?

I love Simpson's pen and wash depictions but IMHO they are no more or less artistic than Mackenzie's efforts. I can love both!

[Ally Mcintosh]

These sketches remind me of Simpson's.  Many are highly exaggerated artistic versions of what exists or what may never have been built.  They look nice though.

Ciao

Let's be honest though. The Simpson ones are much more artistic and beautiful than those ones above.

Ally
Isn't that a bit like saying Monet's landscape paintings are "less artistic" than Turner's because you prefer Turner's?

I love Simpson's pen and wash depictions but IMHO they are no more or less artistic than Mackenzie's efforts. I can love both!

                                                                                                                                                                                             Actually I've always been a big fan of the MacKenzie plan drawings, including some of those above... Just not so sure what he was at with his elevations and / or oblique ones... Simpson was cracking at those... Still, I'm one to talk... I'd swap my drawing skills for either of theirs in a heartbeat...

[Mike_DeVries]

Sorry to have missed this, as I haven't been on in awhile.

Ronnie was an amazing guy and loved his Crystal Downs, riding his old 1940's blue Toro tractor around the course, setting cups and perusing the entire place in slo-mo.  He started in 1928 and missed only 5 years during the Depression and WWII, when he worked for the CCC.  His cousin, Clive, worked on the course, starting in 1937 and I spent a day with Clive in 1994 going around the course and getting his recollections about the course, some of which were attributed to Ronnie.  He never mentioned any drawings but the club history written by Frederick R. Baird has the founder's recollection from 1966, 40 years after the origin of the club.  In there, it states "He (MacK) and Perry Maxwell worked almost around the clock until they had laid down holes and torn them up and laid them down again, emerging finally with the eighteen hole layout that we know today. . . . Nevertheless, MacKenzie and Maxwell went ahead, and MacKenzie, an excellent artist, painted detailed pictures for the contours of every green."

So I believe these could be the sketches that were first carried out on that visit, but they do not resemble what is in the ground today.  As Tom noted, the 18th sketch is close, but the 0, +3, 0, +5, +2, +6 elevations on the green are not really close to what's there, although in concept the shape and back to front slope is severe.  Clive's recollection was that the green was supposed to come back up the hillside that is left of the current fairway, but Maxwell changed the location of the green to the current one.  Clive also noted that the boomerang 7th green was supposed to go further to the right, up the valley towards 6 tees and not around to the left - and when MacKenzie came back to visit (no particular date given), he was quite mad about the change.  I am not sure if MacK ever saw the 18th green's location from the original location or not.

Regarding the back nine greens, from 1943-1946, the back nine upkeep was abandoned due to the war and lack of funds.  According to Mr. Baird's history, "It was not until 1946 that the Club did the necessary work to revive the second nine and play was resumed in 1947.  In this restroation of the back nine it was necessary to work over and completely replant the greens."  Roy Oliver, original builder and greenkeeper of the course was still with the club (retired in 1961), and would have been responsible for doing the repairs -- since he worked closely with Maxwell throughout the construction, I do not think they should have been altered too much in the replanting.

I am excited to get a copy of the book and see the sketches up close.  Maybe there is hope that the rest of them will show up one of these days!

Cheers,
Mike

[Neil_Crafter]

Mike - thanks for finding the thread and posting your insights, much appreciated.

Ron Whitten says in the book that he doesn't have the full set of green plans, but I get the feeling that he has more than the 5 that were included in the book. Hopefully these will come to light one day.