Do Biarritz holes (and Biarritz greens) work? Did they ever?

[Bill Brightly]

Time for a few Biarritz photos:

Yale


The Creek




Forsgate aerial view


from the (cluttered...) tee


Fishers Island


Piping Rock


Hackensack pre-restoration

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I've played them all except for Hackensack's restored version.

When will you change that ?

P.S.  Nice photos

[David Cronheim]

Bill,

Great photos! The change at Hackensack is absolutely stunning (in the best possible way).

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The back tier looks larger than the front tier.

What are the specs on the greens dimensions ?

[Bill Brightly]

The putting surface is 78 yards deep. Approximately 35 yards in the front, 30 yards in the back, and the rest is the swale, including the upslope and downlope of the swale.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

What's the depth of the swale as it relates to both the front and back tier ?

[Bill Brightly]

Not as deep as I would have liked! I'd say 4 feet deep. Our superintendent was concerned that if it went deeper and steeper, it would be hard to mow without scalping the edges of the swale. It is still a very significant rise, absolutely a challenge to put through. And the first 10 feet past the swale are also slightly uphill. (So when you put through it, you have to remember that it is still uphill after the swale, even though it appears to be flat.) This aids in mowing, but it has the (unintended) effect of being a nice place to land both the tee shot and the high handicapper recovery shot that you worry about so much!

What I like about our swale is that is not wide enough to ever consider cutting a hole there. (An abomination that some courses fall prey to, IMO.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Do you hand mow your greens ?

What's the diameter of the swale, from the top of the front tier to the top of the back tier.

It would seem that swales with longer diameters might be better able to accomodate mowing.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

Do you really need me to explain to you the difference between "an ability to hit a given shot type with regularity" and "hitting said shot regularly"?

I'm not sure if you genuinely don't understand they are completely different things or are perhaps just being obtuse because that benefits your argument.

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Do you hand mow your greens ?

What's the diameter of the swale, from the top of the front tier to the top of the back tier.

It would seem that swales with longer diameters might be better able to accomodate mowing.

Of course we hand mow our greens.

I estimate the swale is 13 yards in diameter.

It is not the diameter that matters, it is the sharpness of the angle where the putting surface meets the slope of the swale. The more obtuse the angle the safer it is to mow. If the angle gets too acute, the "corner" can get scalped by the mower. So you could have swale that is very wide (like Forsgate) and still have a problem if the slope is too steep.

Did I pass my geometry test?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

Not yet.

The reason I asked was that I was curious about the comment that the green wouldn't be able to be mowed (scalping) if the swale was deeper.

Yet, Yale manages to mow their swale quite well and it's fairly deep and they're essentially in the same climate belt as Hackensack.

What are some of the deeper swaled Biarritz's ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Do you really need me to explain to you the difference been "an ability to hit a given shot type with regularity" and "hitting said shot regularly"?

They're essentially equivalent, for if you hit the shot with regularlity, you possess the ability to hit the shot with regularity.
And, if you possess the ability to hit the shot with regularity, you hit it with regularity.

There is no hidden impediment.

I'm not sure if you genuinely don't understand they are completely different things or are perhaps just being obtuse because that benefits your argument.

There is no difference unless Yoda is deflecting one's best efforts.

Answer my question, identify the Biarritz's have you played.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

They're not essentially equivalent, they're very different. The first refers to possession of an ability, the second to a demonstration of that ability. It's as simple as that.

The best players can hit the low runner through the swale, but they don't because they can more effectively just fly the ball all the way back.

To answer your question from the previous page, yes, I have played Yale. I think the 9th is a great hole for its many qualities but as with other Biarritz holes I don't believe the intended playing qualities are present in the modern game. It is a very different hole today than was intended.

Re: your request above, I have played the Biarritz holes at Fishers Island and Yale (both wonderful holes in their own right, and very different propositions), the Biarritz hole at MPCC Dunes, the Biarritz green on the par five 15th at Glen Mills and the very similar style green on the 16th at North Berwick West Links.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

They're not essentially equivalent, they're very different. The first refers to possession of an ability, the second to a demonstration of that ability. It's as simple as that.

Not once you insert the words, " with regularity", which is what you did in both instances.

The insertion of the words, "with regularity" connotes repetitive consistency and removes the mere possession of ability and converts it to the product of that ability.   That's equivalency.

The best players can hit the low runner through the swale, but they don't because they can more effectively just fly the ball all the way back.

That's largely  true of all golf, however, that's also a riskier shot and may not be the shot of choice, depending on conditions.

Having been a better golfer and having played numerous Biarritz's I can attest to the fact that many better golfers also choose to play a running shot when the hole is located at the back tier.


To answer your question from the previous page, yes, I have played Yale. I think the 9th is a great hole for its many qualities but as with other Biarritz holes I don't believe the intended playing qualities are present in the modern game. It is a very different hole today than was intended.
That's not true.
Like play on the Redan, play on Biarritz's is often dictated by the elevation differentials between tee and green.
Play on # 9 is purely aerial in that there are no low running shots from that tee elevated high above the green.

In addition, there are some who claim, due to the sloping nature of the back tier, that hole locations were not intended for that tier.

It is almost impossible to hit a low running shot that will acquire the back tier at Yale


Re: your request above, I have played the Biarritz holes at Fishers Island and Yale (both wonderful holes in their own right, and very different propositions),

With respect to Fishers, once again the elevation differential between tee and green is critical to how the hole is played.
Would you risk a low running shot on # 5 at Fishers ?  Irrespective of where the hole was cut ?
Or, are you going to go aerial all the way, irrespective of hole location ?

the Biarritz hole at MPCC Dunes, the Biarritz green on the par five 15th at Glen Mills and the very similar style green on the 16th at North Berwick West Links.

Non par 3's don't count as the architect doesn't clearly define the requested or required shot as he does on par three's

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

Not yet.

The reason I asked was that I was curious about the comment that the green wouldn't be able to be mowed (scalping) if the swale was deeper.

Yet, Yale manages to mow their swale quite well and it's fairly deep and they're essentially in the same climate belt as Hackensack.

What are some of the deeper swaled Biarritz's ?

Yale is the deepest I have played and I bet it is the deepest of them all. Forsgate's is pretty deep, too.

Forsgate's is actually a tougher hole than Hackensack because the green sits up so much higher, which means the bunkers are much lower and tougher to recover from. As an aside, Hackensack was Bank's first solo effort and I believe Forsgate was his last. I wonder oif Banks got more bold as time went on? Or did William Gordon lower Hackensack's green when he worked on our course in the early 1960's? Guess I'll never know.

Remember, the comment about scalping was our superintendent's concern and I can hardly blame him. So while Yale seems to mow their green with no problems, all it takes is one careless grounds person and you can have a scar that will last all season and make the hole look like crap. I guess we'd have to get some superintendents to comment on what the maximium "angle" should be on green contour changes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

But, Yale has to have the same concerns about scalping, ditto Forsgate.

Good question about Bank's progression.

I'd like to embark on a comparitive analysis of all of his template holes, the Redan, Short, etc., etc., to see if there was a patterned progression

Have you played the Biarritz at The Knoll.

The front tier wasn't mowed to putting surface, but, I'd like to see that.

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

I honestly can't understand your inability to see the point I am making re: shot capabilities and execution. I suspect that perhaps we have had all the constructive debate we are going to on this topic.

Rather than drag the thread into oblivion by arguing semantics, I think I'll let what has been a really fun and interesting thread sit tight.

Thanks for providing your input and viewpoint.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Scott,

I see your point, I just don't agree with it.

If someone has the talent to hit a green with "regularity", what's the impediment to doing so ?