[Patrick_Mucci]

Grant,

I don't believe your premise is correct, if anything, it's the reverse.

My experience playing Biarritz's dates to the mid-50's when I was playing the 13th at The Knoll and the 2nd at Essex County West on a regular basis.

The 13th at The Knoll played between 220 and 250 and most golfers in the mid-50's couldn't come close to carrying  the ball 220 to 250, so the shot of choice was to try to either pure it to the front of the back level or try to hit the downslope of the first level or try to hit a low driver or 3-wood that would run the required distance no matter where it first hit the ground.

I'm not sure, and am trying to remember if the front portion of the 13th, which was NOT maintained as putting surface had a set of deflecting or correcting spines that would either redirect the ball toward the green or into the flanking bunkers, depending upon the flight of your ball.

None of the three above shots were easy, but I do recall that the most successful of the shots was the second alternative.
The 13th at the Knoll was elevated above the surrounding terrain, so a missed shot usually ended up in deep flanking bunkers.

The Knoll had two distinct features within the putting surface of two of it's template holes.
On it's Redan, it had a spine running through the green and on it's Biarritz it had a ridge/mound in the back section.
Both are very unusual features for those templates.

It was a very difficult par 3.

While scores higher than bogey weren't usually the case, pars were difficult and birdies almost unheard of.

It was the kind of hole you thought about earlier in the round if you had a good round going.

Today, I see mid to high handicap players capable of carrying to the back section of a Biarritz without much difficulty

Firm, dry fairway turf will produce far more roll than wet putting surfaces.
And in the mid-50's, at the Knoll in the summer, the fairways were firm unless Mother Nature decided otherwise.

I would imagine that the 9th at Piping Rock played the same way early in it's existence.

The depth of the gully may hold the key to playing Biarritz holes.

[George_Bahto]

In today’s world a Biarritz hole is not nothing more than a long par-3.

In order to equate the difficulty of these holes back to what they were in the 20's, you would have to make a Biarritz hole about 280-yards for similar difficulty.

The Knoll’s 13th green surface is pretty much as built for over the years (of neglect), there may have been 30 years of no (or little) top dressing that would have softened the green’s features.

As we spoke of many times, these front “fairway” sections were never meant to be putting surface - they evolved into it (and I like it that way, although not the original intent)

[Sean_A]

In today’s world a Biarritz hole is not nothing more than a long par-3.

In order to equate the difficulty of these holes back to what they were in the 20's, you would have to make a Biarritz hole about 280-yards for similar difficulty.

Sounds about right - then call it a par 4. 

Ciao

[Mark McKeever]

There was a 274 yard par 3 at Cherry Hills this year for the US Am.  I assume you could still do it as a 3 if you wanted.

Mark

[Sean_A]

There was a 274 yard par 3 at Cherry Hills this year for the US Am.  I assume you could still do it as a 3 if you wanted.

Mark

Mark

Thats true and it doesn't much matter either way - to me.  However, for many, a 280-310 par 4 will have the feel good factor that a 275 yard par 3 can never have.  I know its daft, but thats how it is.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

There was a 274 yard par 3 at Cherry Hills this year for the US Am.  I assume you could still do it as a 3 if you wanted.


Mark,

That's the equivalent of about a 250 yard hole ASL

[Ivan Morris]

Do Biarritz holes (like the 16th at North Berwick) work, is the question......probably not with modern equipment. 

[Scott Warren]

George,

The fact that golfers of the early 20th Century played Biarritz holes at a modern equivalent of 260-280 yards (235-250 metres) goes to show how the concept of what's reasonable and fair has changed greatly.

As has the ratio of air time to ground time in most golfers' wood and long iron shots, which is probably just as crucial.

The disparity of the modern game probably means that a Biarritz that would work for me would be far too short and easy for the pros and best amateurs and one that suited them would be far too much hole for me.

[Dan Delaney 🐮]

Scott et al,

There's been a lot of great comments so far.

My two cents is that the greens on par 3s don't play as intended now, and haven't for quite some time.  I'm much more in favor for the green on sometimes-reachable Par 5, than either a 3 or drivable 4. I'm personally a big fan of Bobby Weed's 15th at Glen Mills. Especially given that the proper shot to the back hole location screams for a flighted approach through the swale. The danger of missing long and to either side through an aerial approach from 220+ is just too high for the potential reward. And, it only compounds the necessity of a well placed layup and finely executed approach when played as a full 3 shotter.

The par 3 templates have lost more to how high, straight and soft the current ball flies and lands than anything else in my mind. And this is a long way from someone whose first experience (Yale #9 played as 18) destroyed a career round!

-DD

[Scott Warren]

Dan,

Great first post!

I liked the feature for that 15th at Glen Mills as well, though not so much the downhill ball-below-the-feet lie you have at 200-230ish out, which makes the chasing hook I wanted to hit all the more difficult.

On such a hole there is the added interest of a pin cut close to the swale demanding precision on a pitch shot approach.

I don't think I took a pic of 15 at Glen Mills, which is a shame. Probably one on this site somewhere...

[Scott Warren]

I suspected Joe Bausch would have done a tour of Glen Mills and indeed he has: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,39919.0.html

Here are his pics of the approach to the 15th:

[Sean_A]

Scott

Interesting take on a Biarritz.  Does the left to right slope continue through the 15th green?

Ciao

[Scott Warren]

The green from memory was fairly level, Sean, but I recall that what movement there was followed that general L-to-R slope, at the very least on the front deck.

[Mark McKeever]

The L-R slope is through the entire green, but more pronounced in the front side.  Getting to a back left flag in two is difficult.

Mark

[George_Bahto]

Biarritz: Single Green at Yale:

This from a newspaper article that appeared in The Hartford Courant; Aug 16, 1925 - page B4
New Haven, Aug. 15, 1925, uncovered by Tony Pioppi a few years ago, describing among other things, the 9th at Yale


“The ninth hole is over the northwestern end of the Greist pond and has it original on the Biarritz course in France.   
   
The green proper is behind a deep groove in the approach which is of about the same area as the green. The approach is bunkered heavily on the right and left and the fairway is the lake. This hole is one of the most interesting of the course and is deceptive because of the full water play although the hole is not a long one”

Early in the article it also credits Raynor for the design but indicates the work was overseen by CBM

[Lester George]

They work for me on variety alone.  I will be building one each on my next three courses.

Lester

[Ivan Morris]

All golf should be fast and firm! To make a Biarritz green suit modern play turn them sideways or skew-ways? If nothing else it would put a premium on placing the drive when playing a par 4.   

[Bill Brightly]

They work for me on variety alone.  I will be building one each on my next three courses.

Lester

Lester, that is very exciting. What do you think about the idea of building the greens with a slight front to back pitch to discourage flying the ball to the back section?

Will you use the concept only on par 3's?

[Patrick_Mucci]

They work for me on variety alone.  I will be building one each on my next three courses.

Lester

Lester, that is very exciting. What do you think about the idea of building the greens with a slight front to back pitch to discourage flying the ball to the back section?

Bill,

With the Biarritz being a long hole, if you built it with a front to back pitch how would approaching shots be able to get close to a front hole location ?

That's bad design

Will you use the concept only on par 3's?

[Bill Brightly]

Good point Pat, but what about a slight pitch, enough to stop guys from flying it to the back section. My point is that woods and long irons landing on a slight downslope wont bite, and more players will choose the run up shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

I think the problem with that is that the guy who executes the running shot through the swale to the back portion may be penalized by seeing his ball run down away from him and over the green.

I think that you have to be careful, and in your zest to defend against one type of approach, not unduly penalize another, perhaps prefered method of approach.

I think the problem is the need to make the hole a "driver or 3-wood" hole, like it used to be, and that may mean making it from 250 to 280 from the back tee.

[John McCarthy]

Bill   

The Biarritz I play often is near flat on both putting surfaces.  All putts must be within the hole.  Getting to the green is the problem. 

If one plays short   , the pitch is easy short but forgiving long
 

[Sean_A]

They work for me on variety alone.  I will be building one each on my next three courses.

Lester

Lester, that is very exciting. What do you think about the idea of building the greens with a slight front to back pitch to discourage flying the ball to the back section?

Bill,

With the Biarritz being a long hole, if you built it with a front to back pitch how would approaching shots be able to get close to a front hole location ?

That's bad design

Will you use the concept only on par 3's?

The same way folks get balls close to holes on other front to back sloping greens.  Why is it bad architecture? 

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

How many back sloping greens do you find on holes requiring a driver or 3-wood for a regulation approach ?

Could you name them ?

[Scott Warren]

Patrick,

The 1st hole at Woking, for starters.

You may have seen the 3rd at Royal Melbourne (West) / 1st hole Composite during last year's Pres Cup.

The 10th at Riviera (the 4th as well, for that matter).

How about the 2nd at National Golf Links?

Etc.

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