Raynor one shot holes as a set (the case for Shoreacres)

[Bill McKinley]

I have not played Shoreacres yet, but of the 3 Raynor's that I've played (Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Camargo) I would rank FCGC as the best Biarittz, Camargo with the best Eden and Short and Redan.  No disrepect to ML, but that's where i'd put em.

[Scott Warren]

When Yale is discussed and its par threes criticised, it's generally because of the fact the Redan and Short are not entirely faithful recreations of the concept.

However, let's forget for a moment whether the 5th is a great Short or whether the 13th is a great Redan and simply ask "are they great holes?" IMO they are. If you're asking for Raynor's best set of template par threes, Yale isn't a candidate, but if you're interested primarily in the sheer playing quality of the one-shot holes, it has to be on the shortlist.

5th


9th


13th


15th

[J_ Crisham]

Having played a pretty fair amount of Raynor courses, I have a lot of trouble seeing the par 3's among his best.  Very simply, the redan does not work, and is a boring  green at best.  The same can be said for the Biarritz since it is a 3/4 football field with an 18 inch channel.  Maybe because Chicago does not have any truely great courses, there is an effort to make things seem better.  Every  Raynor around metro-Ny has better par 3's as a whole than Shoreacres.  As for great 3's, Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Fishers Island, Southampton, and Camargo are far superior.  When thinking of Shoreacres, it has a great 2nd, and an awesome stretch of 10-13.  

Robert,    What is your definition of truly great courses? Would top 100 in the US qualify? If that is the case visit CGC,Shoreacres,Skokie, OFCC North, Beverly, Butler, Medinah,Black Sheep for example. These are all great courses according to every magazine list.Right behind Philly,MET area, and Boston, for arguably the best concentration of solid golf. How many times have you played SA? You left out 15,17,4-by my count thereare 15 very good holes at SA.

[Ted Sturges]

Having played a pretty fair amount of Raynor courses, I have a lot of trouble seeing the par 3's among his best.  Very simply, the redan does not work, and is a boring  green at best.  The same can be said for the Biarritz since it is a 3/4 football field with an 18 inch channel.  Maybe because Chicago does not have any truely great courses, there is an effort to make things seem better.  Every  Raynor around metro-Ny has better par 3's as a whole than Shoreacres.  As for great 3's, Fox Chapel, Mountain Lake, Fishers Island, Southampton, and Camargo are far superior.  When thinking of Shoreacres, it has a great 2nd, and an awesome stretch of 10-13.  

Robert,    What is your definition of truly great courses? Would top 100 in the US qualify? If that is the case visit CGC,Shoreacres,Skokie, OFCC North, Beverly, Butler, Medinah,Black Sheep for example. These are all great courses according to every magazine list.Right behind Philly,MET area, and Boston, for arguably the best concentration of solid golf. How many times have you played SA? You left out 15,17,4-by my count thereare 15 very good holes at SA.

I both agree and disagree with Robert's comments above.  I do think the one shot holes at Shoreacres as a set are strong.  I agree that the redan is the weakest (but it's still a very cool hole).  I think when talking about an "awesome stretch of 10-13", it is wrong to not include 10-15 as "the stretch" (to me 15 may be the best hole on the course, and to my knowledge is a truly unique Raynor hole).  I also generally agree with him that Chicago is not nearly as blessed as other large metro areas for great courses.  Jack's referencing of the magazine raters listings as meeting the definition of "great" would also be flawed in my view. I don't think many consider Medinah or Butler "great", and after Chicago Golf Club and Shoreacres, it's hard to come up with a short list of courses that would motivate someone to buy a plane ticket for a week of golf in Chicago (unlike Boston, Metro NY, Philly, LA, SF, or even Columbus, Ohio).  

TS

[Jud_T]

For reference, there was exactly 1 Doak 8 in the Confidential Guide (and no 9's or 10's) in the metro Chicago area, and while there are a lot of very solid courses about, aside from the usual GCA grade inflation and local breast-beating it's hard to argue too vociferously with that assessment.  Shoreacres is more of a true gem than a worldbeater, which is just fine in my book.  Some will absolutely love it as I do, while others will find it too short for the modern game and possessing a few pedestrian holes.  A buddy of mine turned down a membership invite because he simply couldn't hit driver enough there, a pretty sad indictment of where technology has been allowed to take us.

[J_ Crisham]

For reference, there was exactly 1 Doak 8 in the Confidential Guide (and no 9's or 10's) in the metro Chicago area, and while there are a lot of very solid courses about, aside from the usual GCA grade inflation and local breast-beating it's hard to argue too vociferously with that assessment.  Shoreacres is more of a true gem than a worldbeater, which is just fine in my book.  Some will absolutely love it as I do, while others will find it too short for the modern game and possessing a few pedestrian holes.  A buddy of mine turned down a membership invite because he simply couldn't hit driver enough there, a pretty sad indictment of where technology has been allowed to take us.

Jud,     Can you cite some examples of usual GCA grade inflation and local breast beating?

[Jud_T]

I can't find it offhand, but I think all you've got to do is look in the mirror at your own Chicago ratings Jack. 

[George Pazin]

Blue Mound CC in Milwaukee's Redan, 13th.  This shows the dramatic and well defined 'kicker' hill.  If maintained firm and fast, a low shot into this kicker should perform as designed.  But, if too soft, not so much... 



The back side of the kicker, which before Renaissance resto work, had maple trees on the edge of the kicker, now looks great.




Blue Mound's short, is more down hill and has a more defined thumbprint than the light of this photo shows:

That redan looks kinda like a mirror image of the Fox Chapel redan, with the great big kicker.

[J_ Crisham]

I can't find it offhand, but I think all you've got to do is look in the mirror at your own Chicago ratings Jack. 

Jud,        Which of my ratings are overrated and where would you place the  courses I've mentioned?

[rjsimper]

I thought the 3s at Shoreacres were maybe the best set I have played, or certainly among the top 5.

Interesting to hear the opinion that the Redan does not work...I played it to a back pin and hit the prescribed shot, something like a 4 iron with a little draw, and the kickslope carried it all the way back on line with the pin, maybe 15 feet short.  I thought it worked.

Maybe it doesn't work great for balls landing short of the green.

[Jud_T]

I can't find it offhand, but I think all you've got to do is look in the mirror at your own Chicago ratings Jack.  

Jud,        Which of my ratings are overrated and where would you place the  courses I've mentioned?

I can't find 'em offhand, but for instance I believe you had Beverly as an 8.  Nothing personal, it's a great club and a very good, solid track, and I'd have to play it a few more times to put a fine point on it myself, but 7 seems like the high end based on one's personal preferences, 8's grade inflation.

[J_ Crisham]

I can't find it offhand, but I think all you've got to do is look in the mirror at your own Chicago ratings Jack.  

Jud,        Which of my ratings are overrated and where would you place the  courses I've mentioned?

I can't find 'em offhand, but for instance I believe you had Beverly as an 8.  Nothing personal, it's a great club and a very good, solid track, and I'd have to play it a few more times to put a fine point on it myself, but 7 seems like the high end based on one's personal preferences, 8's grade inflation.

The reason you cant find them is because they arent there- i've never said Beverly was an 8- I have it as a 6 or possibly a 7 when in great condition. I dont let my personal feelings affect my ratings-and if you feel it is overrated just pass on it. Cant be any more overrated than Kingsley!

[Jud_T]

OK,

Maybe it wasn't you I was thinking of, sorry.  Some here think I have Kingsley underrated at an 8.  Once again grade inflation....

[George Pazin]

Takes a rare bird to see his own inflation; the number of folks on here who don't succumb is in the low single digits, might even be zero. That's why Mackenzie didn't place much value in people's opinions of their home course.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

Jack,
My view of a great course is one that has wonderful shot values, options, strategic hazards, requires some quality strategic thought on the tee shot for best approach to the hole, interesting greens, and good use of the land.  SA does have these qualities on most of the holes.  I find holes 2, 10-13, 15, and 17 to be very, very strong holes.  On the other hand, holes 1,5,9,and 18 are fairly blah holes.  And the 3rd hole has to be the weakest and worst Alps hole among all the template versions.  It's the weak holes that holds SA back in my ranking it among the elite Raynor courses.
As for Chicago courses, there are some Golf Digest favorites that I find far less than great--Medinah, Butler, and Cog Hill #4.  I think Olymipia Fields and Beverly are really wonderful courses, but not top 100 US level.  My Chicago ranking is Chicago, Black Sheep and Skokie tied, and then a slight fall off.  I really think there needs to be more discussion on what Black Sheep has to offer as a course.
I think metroLA is much stronger than Chicago, not to mention the more well covered areas for great golf.

[Ronald Montesano]

Scott, from that perspective, you are correct. The four at Yale are terrific holes. I made mild mistakes on the latter two and was punished. Good shots into the first two one-shotters rewarded me.

[Kevin Robinson]

Has anyone mentioned Chicago Golf Club?
The Biarritz there isn't quite as well defined from the tee as some others, but is among the most-solid examples of the swale-mown-as-fairway that I have played...and it's actually flatter than the one at Yeamans and Camargo, as I recall.
The Redan, at least for myself, is absolutely breathtaking. It is bolder, more difficult, and visually more frightening for a high-handicap player than any other I've seen.
I don't remember much about the the Eden.
The Short, on the other hand, has a REALLY cool green, and, has the added distinction of being a hole that was possibly original to the original CBM layout on the same property.