Course record at The Ocean Course

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

What's your opinion on this.  During the 1997 World Cup, Alex Cejka shot a 63 in calm conditions with the course set at just around 6,800 yards.  In the ensuing years, Pete Dye has been back numerous times to make changes, including completely moving and redesigning the entire green complex at No. 18.  During the PGA Championship, Seung-Yul Noh shot a blistering 65 in the final round with the course set at around 7,600.  Considering the entirely new 18th and an additional 800 yards, who has the current course record, Cejka or Noh?

[jeffwarne]

Cejka

[Tim Martin]

Cejka

+1

[Ross Harmon]

Cejka

+1

+2.

Although it's longer, the equipment has also changed a great deal.

[jeffwarne]

When the course opened it had the ability to be set at 7700 yards, but was never intended for all back tees to be used every day.

It could get really sticky if every time someone shot a low competitive or back yee number they had to justify it by ensuring that all tournament tees were back(to a certain yardage), which would certainly make for boring setups

[Matt MacIver]

This is probably not the right way to look at it, but if the yardage, course rating and slope have changed then the course has changed, so it's a new course, and thus a new record. 

[Joel Zuckerman]

I was under the impression the golf course could be set up far longer than 7700 yards.  Unless Mike tells me differently, I think there are some way, way, way back Teebox's, practically out of sight, on some of the early holes on the back nine.  I thought the course could actually be stretched 8000 or even 8200 yards

[jeffwarne]

I was under the impression the golf course could be set up far longer than 7700 yards.  Unless Mike tells me differently, I think there are some way, way, way back Teebox's, practically out of sight, on some of the early holes on the back nine.  I thought the course could actually be stretched 8000 or even 8200 yards

I'm sure that's true Joel
I was referring to 1991
7700 sea level yards then would be about 9000 today

[Jonathan Mallard]

This is probably not the right way to look at it, but if the yardage, course rating and slope have changed then the course has changed, so it's a new course, and thus a new record. 

So... do Price's & Norman's 63 at Augusta count? Miller's 63 at Oakmont??

[mike_beene]

Cejka shot the lowest score.No two days are the same.

[Doug Sobieski]

Cejka's wasn't even close to the back tees. He can call it the course record from the middle tees if he wants. If someone goes out and shoots 62 from 6200 yards, is that the course record then? I have my name on a course record plaque at a club which list the record FOR THE MIDDLE TEES (it's been surpassed by a mile). I never once thought I really held the "course" record since there were several hundred yards behind me. They had that record listed separately.

I remember that World Cup event, and the talk that they needed to play it fairly short so some of the weaker countries wouldn't get embarrassed. Didn't Steven Ames play with his brother that year? I remember one competitor that was probably a 4 handicap!

[Ronald Montesano]

Agree with Doug...that differential (800 yards=40+ yards per hole) makes it two different courses. Cejka has member tees record and Noh has championship tees record. You cannot defend Cejka continuing to hold the course record.

[noonan]

The 63 is the record

[mike_beene]

Slippery slope.If it is not the 63 then who is to say it is not 69 shot by someone on a day when the wind blew rain horizontally with the addition of a wound ball.Also,the course claims the Ryder Cup from 91 and acts like it was on the same course.No fair having your cake and eating it too!

[David_Elvins]

Don't think it matters,  course records are being made more and more irrelevant by the moving tees in championship golf.  They are no-wehere near as significant as they used to be.

[Matt_Cohn]

One is the course record. The other is the back tee record. Right?

[Ronald Montesano]

Rain and wind are not measurable identifiers; yardage is.

If the 63 is the course record and some lady comes in and shoots 62 from the forward tees, is it now the course record?

Not sure why this is so difficult...

[Steve Salmen]

The balls weren't flying nearly as far in 1997.  Pros were still using balta or Professionals.  Does anyone know the course rating and slope from 1997?  I suppose you could take a differential for both rounds to find a real mathematical way of determining the course record.

[Ken Fry]

A tournament course record is a tournament course record.  Male records and female records are usually separated.  Differentiate competitive course record with non-competitive course record but you can't put an asteriks for more or less wind, soft or firm conditions or a "friendlier" course set up by organization in charge of setting up the course.

Ken

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

But what about the changes on the course, especially the changes to No. 18.  Is that enough to tip the scales?  We're just trying to be accurate and fair here when we say who has the course record.

[John Kavanaugh]

Augusta sticks with their tournament records despite all the changes. Raymond Floyd and that 5 wood were magical times, no need to take that away from him or us.

[Sean_A]

A tournament course record is a tournament course record.  Male records and female records are usually separated.  Differentiate competitive course record with non-competitive course record but you can't put an asteriks for more or less wind, soft or firm conditions or a "friendlier" course set up by organization in charge of setting up the course.

Ken

I agree with Ken.  63 is the record.  The course isn't so different from back when.  If it is, a course record should have been kept from the time the resort considered the changes made a difference. 

As an aside, I always liked the idea of a course record and an amateur record if a pro holds the lowest score. 

Ciao

[Ken Fry]

I agree with the comment made earlier about The Masters.  They still list the tournament record as 63.  The course is very different now then it was in 1986 for Nick Price or 1996 for Greg Norman.

I've heard of courses treating course records both ways, splitting them by time frame and course alterations.  I think it's too hard to differentiate when enough work has been done to justify establishing new records.

Ken

[John_Conley]

I remember that World Cup event, and the talk that they needed to play it fairly short so some of the weaker countries wouldn't get embarrassed. Didn't Steven Ames play with his brother that year? I remember one competitor that was probably a 4 handicap!

One year Colin Montgomerie commented on the course used for the World Cup having to be set up so easy for the "lesser nations" that he felt it wasn't enough of a test for the best players.  Of course, he's probably world #1 at the time.

Same year?

[Doug Sobieski]

I remember that World Cup event, and the talk that they needed to play it fairly short so some of the weaker countries wouldn't get embarrassed. Didn't Steven Ames play with his brother that year? I remember one competitor that was probably a 4 handicap!

One year Colin Montgomerie commented on the course used for the World Cup having to be set up so easy for the "lesser nations" that he felt it wasn't enough of a test for the best players.  Of course, he's probably world #1 at the time.

Same year?

Indeed, that was the same year. I actually recall some reports of early rounds set up around 6,600. I was surprised when Mike initially said they stretched it as long as 6800.