[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm genuinely surprised that nobody has put Trump Scotland at the top of their list in 2012! I guess none of you guys have played it yet

Brian,
 
A very good golfer, whose opinions I respect, who gets to play all around the country, who I play with every year,  recently returned from a week playing Trump Scotland.

When I asked him to rank the course, he said it's in his top 5.

Others I've spoken to, who have played it, also had high praise for the course.

Have you played it ?  If so, how would you rate it ?
If you haven't played it, why are you putting it down ? 

[Ari Techner]

1989 - Franklin Hills CC
1998 - Pinehurst #2
1999 - Crystal Downs
2001 - Pacific Dunes
2007 to present - Sand Hills

[Brian Colbert]

Pat,

I haven't had the chance to play the course yet, and I also never said anything negative about the course. I just think it is pretty bold to come out and declare your own course "the greatest golf course in the world" as I believe Mr. Trump has been quoted as saying. I have seen the photo tour and I agree that the course looks fantastic, but to self declare your course as better than courses like Pine Valley, TOC, and Augusta National seems absurd to me.

That said, I respect Mr. Trump for his passion for the game and the ability to love his own product. I hope to see the Scotland course someday (along with all of the other greats) to make an informed opinion. For what it's worth I have played three Donald Trump courses and they have all been about the same in mold: an incredibly extravagant clubhouse, beautiful practice facility, perfect conditioning, and a tricked up golf course with a few tee boxes which are so ridiculous that they probably wouldn't use them even for a tour event.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I haven't had the chance to play the course yet, and I also never said anything negative about the course. I just think it is pretty bold to come out and declare your own course "the greatest golf course in the world" as I believe Mr. Trump has been quoted as saying. I have seen the photo tour and I agree that the course looks fantastic, but to self declare your course as better than courses like Pine Valley, TOC, and Augusta National seems absurd to me.

Brian, you've been around golf for a while, would you expect "The Donald" to declare anything less ?
That's his M.O., but from what I'm told, his claims may have some merit regarding this course, no matter how abrasive his claims seem to be.

That said, I respect Mr. Trump for his passion for the game and the ability to love his own product. I hope to see the Scotland course someday (along with all of the other greats) to make an informed opinion. For what it's worth I have played three Donald Trump courses and they have all been about the same in mold: an incredibly extravagant clubhouse, beautiful practice facility, perfect conditioning, and a tricked up golf course with a few tee boxes which are so ridiculous that they probably wouldn't use them even for a tour event.

Putting aside the non-golf elements, I'm not crazy about the courses I've played either, but the practice facilities are good and the course conditions are generally very good.

I'm told, by several sources, that Trump Scotland is an outstanding golf course, and like you, I'm hopeful that I'll play it one day.

[Kevin Cahoon]

1992 Cog Hill #4   It was great to play where the pros tee it up
1994 Medinah #3  My first great country club experience
2005 TOC             Two wonderful rounds with my dad and brother
2006 Muirfield       I was amazed by the routing.
2010 Prairie Dunes The green complexes fascinate me and a course I do not think would ever get boring

[Matt MacIver]

1986 – U of Maryland course 
1989 – Pine Ridge GC
1992 – Chevy Chase CC
1996 – Mid-Pines
1999 – Old North State
2002 – TPC Sawgrass
2003 - #2
2004 – Bethpage Black
2005 – Kiawah Ocean (my first “links”, and discovered gca.com) 
2006 – Pacific Dunes / Bandon Trails (left Bandon with a tie)
2007 – Old Course (Kingsbarns, Gleneagles Kings, Prestwick and Turnberry were also favorites)

I’ve played a fair amount since 2007 but not on very many highly acclaimed courses.  To Tom D.’s point it’s not likely anything will surpass TOC but fingers crossed get (re)inspired whenever I finally get to see courses the likes of Dornoch, OM, Ballyneal, Royal Melbourne, Cypress Point and Friar’s Head. 

[Dan Herrmann]

1978 - Sheridan Park (Tonawanda, NY)
1980 - Glen Abbey (Toronto)
1987 - Riverside (Portland, OR)
1988 - Waverly (Portland, OR)
2001 - Pacific Dunes
2006 - Merion East

I've subsequently played other excellent courses, but nothing has surpassed Merion.

[Josh Tarble]

1997 - Marshall (IL) Golf Course - biggest goat ranch of a course, but it's the course I grew up on and instilled a love of the game
1999 - Bel-Air CC - had an opportunity to play this course and the routing and design really fascinated me...the course that got me into gca
2004 - Whistling Straits -Straights - first truly great I've played, it's truly amazing how much P. Dye got out of the site and was able to build
2011 - Cape Kidnappers - an incredible course in an incredible setting...will be hard to top this one but I'm looking forward to trying

[Sean_A]

Doesn't really answer the question because there is no answer for that.  Just a list of the 10 courses which most opened my eyes to what great architecture can be. 

1977ish - Grosse Ile (Michigan)
1981 - University of Michigan
1991 - St Andrews Old
1992 - North Berwick
1993 - Ballybunion
2001 - Kington & Pennard
2005 - Woking
2006 - Tobacco Road
2008 - Merion
2011 - St Andrews Old

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Sean:

You rated Tobacco Road ahead of Ballybunion, St. Andrews, N. Berwick?

Really?

Bart

[Mark Steffey]

Sean:

You rated Tobacco Road ahead of Ballybunion, St. Andrews, N. Berwick?

Really?

Bart

no... he rated that above Woking

[Sean_A]

Sean:

You rated Tobacco Road ahead of Ballybunion, St. Andrews, N. Berwick?

Really?

Bart

Bart

I don't really know what the greatest courses are for me - I think in terms of favourites. 

No, these are the courses which I reckon influenced me the most into coming to grips with what I feel is important about architecture.  Of course timing is everything as I could easily have a course like Dornoch in there, but by the time I saw it there was no real push forward on my thoughts.  Same could be said of Oakland Hills, but it essentially didn't bring anything new to the table which I didn't get at Grosse Ile...etc etc

Ciao

[Bart Bradley]

Sean

I don't think you understood the thread.

Bart

[Chris Shaida]

Bart

I don't think you understood Sean.

Chris

[Ross Harmon]

1992 - Knollwood (West), Granger, IN
1993 - Blackthorn, South Bend, IN
(didn't play much for a decade)
2003 - Riverdale Dunes, Brighton, CO
2009 - Crooked Stick, Carmel, IN
2011 - Teeth of the Dog, La Romana, DR
2011 - Ballyneal, Holyoke, CO
2012 - Pacific Dunes, Bandon, OR (for 1 day)
2012 - Old Macdonald, Bandon, OR
2012 - Ballyneal, Holyoke, CO

Bandon totally blew my mind, so Pac and OM immediately jumped to the top of the list. However, today I believe that Ballyneal is actually a better golf course, but I'm partial to my home state of Colorado.  

[John Shimp]

Started paying in 1979.  Never played anywhere decent.  All about how i played.

1982.   Palmetto golf club.   Played in the southern cross.  Odest continuos hs tourney.
1992.    TOC or Royal Dornach.  Couldnt decde after a trip following my last submarine patrol in Scotland.
1994.    Yale.  Thought it was harder and cooler than anything i had seen in scotlad. Got to play it a lot,
1996.     Royal dornoch.  Thought it the best after b school trip that inclded toc, troon, prestwick, cruden bay, carnostie, aberdeen, etc
1997.   ANGC. Right after woods won.  Knew it wasnt the best but quite the place.
1998.   County down.  Front niine is unreal.  Loved Lahinch too.
2000.    Shinnecock
2009.   Played lots of heavy weights including merion and ngla.  Believed that rcd and shinny were the best.
2011.    Back to scotland. Toc, north berwick muirfield clearly the best. 
2012.    Shinny, toc, muirfield, and rcd are at the top.  Muirfield is the best slighty over the others.  Palmetto though is my favorite.  Last rd place for sure.

[David_Elvins]

1982 leongatha gc
1988 Cape Schank
1992 Royal Melbourne West
2002 St Andrews Old
2004 Royal Melbourne West
2005 Barnbougle Dunes
2007 Royal Melbourne West
2008 Barnbougle Dunes
2011 Royal Melbourne West
2012 Barnbougle Dunes

[Sean Leary]

1987 Winchester CC Winchester MA
1997 Pasatiempo
1999 Pebble Beach
2001 Ballybunion
2004 Pine Valley

[Bart Bradley]

1982 leongatha gc
1988 Cape Schank
1992 Royal Melbourne West
2002 St Andrews Old
2004 Royal Melbourne West
2005 Barnbougle Dunes
2007 Royal Melbourne West
2008 Barnbougle Dunes
2011 Royal Melbourne West
2012 Barnbougle Dunes

A little wishy-washy are we  .

David, honestly, what makes you keep changing your opinion?  Changes in the courses, maturity of Barnbougle Dunes, schizophrenia ?

Bart

[Mac Plumart]

Bart...he may be wishy-washy, but at least he put up a list.  Where's yours?

 

[Chris Clouser]

I'm surprised by the number of people that have Crooked Stick on their list at one point.  Must be a lot of Hoosiers here.

[Bart Bradley]

Mac:

1972 -- Peru Municipal, Peru IN (grandmother introduced me to the game at age 5)
1977-- Brookwood, Fort Wayne, IN
1980 -- some course in HI some island in HI (maui or kaua'i)
1982 -- Orchard Ridge CC, Fort Wayne, IN
1989-- Eagle Creek, Indianapolis, IN
1990 -- Ross Course at French Lick
1997 -- Pebble Beach
2003 -- The Old Course
2004 -- Lahinch
2009 -- Merion
2012 -- Royal Melbourne

Another Hoosier...but didn't get to Crooked Stick as a youngster.

[Sean Walsh]

1985 Cobden GC
1987 Rich River GC
1998 Horsham GC
1999 Port Fairy GC
2001 Kingston Heath GC
2003 TOC
2003 Kingsbarns
2003 Royal Dornoch
2003 Brora
2003 Lahinch
2003 Baltray - County Louth.  The finest praise I can give is that after 26 courses in 2 months Baltray, Lahinch, Brora and TOC were the four course I desperately wanted to replay at some time in my life. Barnbougle Dunes came the closest to usurping this position between 2003-2007.  If this were an Australian list Barnbougle and Lost Farms would sit equal in first ahead of KH.

After a lot of reading and joining GCA I returned to Europe in 2006-7. 10 months living at St andrews and 6 months of caddying TOC returned TOC to the top of this list.  A place from which it is unlikely to be displaced not only for the undoubted quality of the course but also because I can't ever expect I will achieve the same familiarity with a course as I did with TOC during thos 6 months.

2007 - TOC

[Kevin Lynch]

I actually like Sean's approach to this, even though it may not follow the "expected" path.  Sean played TOC in 1991, and arguably could have been done in this process.  But, I think he hit on a critical point. The subsequent courses that you play may be equally important to the initial playing.  In the short term, these courses may even be deemed the "greatest" until you re-reflect on earlier experiences in light of what you learned from the latter courses.  I think these latter courses are integral to the evolution that this exercise is trying to describe.

In my case, I played Oakmont in 2002, and easily could have been "done." But, given my limited previous experience, my judgment of Oakmont in 2002 was largely based on its history and others people's rankings.  Total appreciation didn't sink in until there were other courses I walked off of and said "that was one of the greatest."

Any course that touches you enough along the way to even contemplate "greatest" status is special. The post-contemplative relative ranking is really irrelevant when you consider the things you learned.  Like Sean's  as we get older, the courses that significantly "add" to our understanding become less frequent.

1987-2000: Doesn't count - "great" was defined by "best-conditioned" or "toughest." I had no idea what I was looking for.
2000:  Coudersport - opened my eyes that quirk, fun and bold features mean more than green / tough.
2001:  Greystone - more bold, more extreme elevation change - inspiration means more
2002:  Ravenwood - first course where I noticed the "feel" of the routing - was the greatest to date
2002:  Oakmont - knew it was supposed to be the greatest I ever played, and supposedly the toughest. Was surprised to learn that "toughest" has ZERO to do with OB, lost balls or water.  Discovered the mental exhaustion and satisfaction of grinding out 2 putts.
2003:  Bethpage Black - another that was supposed to be tough.  Confirmed what I learned at Oakmont that tough had little to do with penalty strokes.
2006:  Kohler - played all 4 Dye courses and noticed all the subtle features and variety that make Pete Dye great.  First place I experienced the exhilaration of playing adjacent to large body of water.   Again, WS deemed "brutally tough" but had little to do with lost balls.  The virtue of 1/2 stroke penalties vs 1 or 2 stroke penalties is cemented.
2009:  Tobacco Road - If that doesn't influence your whole worldview of architecture, nothing will.  Made me realize the value of "psychological hazards."
2010:  Ballyhack - Bold & fun on an inspirational piece of land.  Incredible variety with holes that stay with you forever.
2012:  Dormie:  All the quirk, fun & shotmaking of Ballyhack, without the punitive edge that can scare some at BH.  

Can I name my greatest course definitively right now? No, I honestly can't.  But so many of the above hold a special place in my heart for what they revealed to me over the years.

[David_Elvins]

t makes you keep changing your opinion?  Changes in the courses, maturity of Barnbougle Dunes, schizophrenia ?
Bart

Most likely schizophrenia. 

Strong opinions are for the unthoughtful.

Golf Course appreciation is hardly an exact science and it's not logical for anyone who has visited a wide variety of great courses to have a consistent favorite.

I feel I know Barnbougle very well however my opinion on RM varies a bit.  I think growing up Royal Melbourne was the course that every golf course was held up against.  It was beyond reproach.  As I have travelled more widely and taken a critical approach to some of the world's top courses, I think I have started to look at Royal Melbourne more critically.  Then they had grass issues and a couple of architecural changes that weren't great as well. 

If I had played RM composite, I think it would definitely be my number 1 more of the time.  I am not sure the mix of holes at RMW is quite as good.  My last switcheroo - to put Barnbougle at no.1 was after the last time I played RMW. 

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