[William_G]

Tom,

That was a very good post and the first on this thread that has made me rethink my position.  Someone should pay you to write.  

I must admit that I didn't start playing golf until college, so I am not the best barometer of the olden days.  Maybe my biggest beef is with the scorecard and not the markers themselves.  

The scorecard is part of the welcome sign.

thanks

[Jason Topp]

6 pages of debate over this issue?  We have them.  They cost almost nothing to install.  They are placed in spots where drives are unlikely to land.  I rarely notice them when playing from regular tees.  They don't get used very often.  I doubt they have a big impact on junior interest in the game (other factors are far more important) but they do not hurt anything either.

[Ben Sims]

William,

Still unconvinced.  A welcome sign?  Pssh, give me a break.  I want to know some specifics.  Like what the average age of new golfers is in the US.  I want to know what the average per year spending is on golf by those under the age of 20.  I want to know of those that begin playing golf under the age of 10, what percentage are still with the game at 30 and 40.  I am surprised that we on this board have prattled on for over 6 pages on getting young juniors to play the game, when it is they that care the least about the mode in which they play.  A kid that wants to golf at 7 is going to be a golfer whether we put markers or scorecards out or not.  Why all the fuss over them? 

I want to know why there isn't more directed at the post-sports young men and women.  The cheerleaders, football players, baseball players, and volleyball players that pick up golf when their athletic life winds down.  It's only natural.  The vast majority of my golfing friends played golf after they played other things.  I think the worst thing we can do for young golfers is throw out welcome mats with ways to compete younger and younger.  I loved baseball more than anything at 13.  You couldn't pay me to play anymore.  Getting golfers competitive too young runs a risk of losing them later. 

I don't think this program really does anything.  That's my point.  Kids the age that this program is directed at are going to play either way.

[David Kelly]

A friend of mine recently started our fantasy football league.  Our draft was a men's affair--kids and wives gone for the day.  Upon asking my friend what he had to do to convince his wife of that he said that he was now required to host a fantasy draft and league for his 8-year-old son and his friends.  I chock it up to another example of the entitlement that we have embued in our children. 

Good Lord. 

[Doug Wright]

6 pages of debate over this issue?  We have them.  They cost almost nothing to install.  They are placed in spots where drives are unlikely to land.  I rarely notice them when playing from regular tees.  They don't get used very often.  I doubt they have a big impact on junior interest in the game (other factors are far more important) but they do not hurt anything either.

Totally agree with you Jason. We have them as well.

Is GCA.com jumping the shark?

[Ben Sims]

David,

There is a little Oscar Wilde in all of this.  I'm actually laughing at the things I and others have written on this thread.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Interesting to note the main and early protagonist has chosen not to respond to all his various claims and subsequent questions.

Done to death. Switching off notification to this thread - thanks for the thoughts, everyone, I hope our clubs can continue to show young potential golfers that the great game of golf is indeed ACCESSIBLE to all and most importantly FUN.

Like it or not they are the future, along with ex sports people, women, mums and retirees.

[Dan Herrmann]

This is like arguing that joy is a bad thing.  Come on.  This is for little kids.  To get them excited to play golf with their family and friends.  Cost is essentially zero.    

I hate kids' entitlement, but this isn't it.    It's a simple idea that has been very successful at our course

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:
You have continued across this thread with what appears to me - the basis for your argument - that the game of golf had its strongest growth with two-three tees, correct?

That's just one facet of my argument.

You also counter many of the posts here with - so why should six tees work to grow the game, as we didn't need them during the greatest growth period of the game ( assume the 20th century) correct?

That's correct.

Not sure where the six tees part came from,

Brett, clubs typically have three sets for the men, championship, regular and forward with Senior tees added.
In addition you have one or two sets of women's tees, so you're at the five to six tee sets without adding another set.

When you install a "family" set, that brings the total to five, six or seven.

That drives up maintainance costs and dues.

If you're not locating the "family" set outside of the existing footpads, why do you need another set, irrespective of whether you call it "Family" tees or some other name.

If it's within the existing men's footpad, women would have to come back to play there, causing them to be subjected to a harder course.

If it's within the existing women's footpad, why do you need another set of tees, just comingle and call them the forward tees.

If it's outside of the existing men's and women's tees, it will cost money to build and maintain them.
More money to build and maintain a set of tees for what purpose ?

My kids went through the normal progression of fairway, women's tees, men's forward tees and then to the regular tees, with some play from the championship tees.  Why isn't this sufficient ?  

Do families have to huddle and cuddle on a specified tee in order to bond on a golf course ?

I'm going to play the regular and championship tees and occassionally the forward tees when the weather dictates.
Did I and my peers not learn the game properly, did we not learn the etiquette and the ability to play by being deprived of "Family" tees.

I find it absurd, a concession to catering to every self interest group in the club, just like I do the "play it forward" fad.
If a member pays his dues, he's entitled to play from whatever tees he chooses.
And, most prudent golfers tend to play from the tees commensurate with their game.
I don't see many 15 or 25 handicappers playing from the championship tees, do you ?

If the plates, not seperate tees are located within the footpads of the existing tees, what do you need them for ?
Do you not know what tees are commensurate with your game ?

I recently played a round at Mountain Ridge where I played a combination of the regular and championship tees.
My youngest son, who just turned 14 played with us.
Were some of the holes a little beyond his ability from those tees, sure, but, it gave him something to strive for.
On a number of holes, he was on or around the green in regulation and on the 17th hole, from the championship tees, he crushed a drive (past me) and then crushed a 3-wood (past mine) leaving him a wedge into the par 5 green.  Why should I force him to play from "family" tees ?

His progression along with mine and everyone else I know, was adequate when we played from the fairway, then moved back to the tees commensurate with our games and our goals as we became more proficient.


my own comments were based on adding a family teeing ground - yes a teeing area with permanent tee plates and probably movable tee markers, that are installed in a small area of fairway at a suitable length. No maintenance required. Minimal cost.

How can you say that ?
There are construction costs, along with drainage and location issues and most certainly ongoing maintainance costs.

And, I don't want to tee off from where the fairway begins and neither does my wife.
We want to play from the tees commensurate with our games.

Like the picture showed, at appropriate times, just have some markers put in the fairway and the kids can play from there.
No need to formalize a course for kids that will be incredibly underutilized.

Score card. Rating. Course map.- my assumptions were correctly based on William's opening post photos, with the course map with tee indicators on the edges of fairways - I think that it is then reasonable to make the connection that we were talking about utilizing existing areas, and not building new tees - you seem to have added that in along with your unnecessary construction costs point.

You must not have much experience on a green committee or any understanding of drainage and the need for a fairly level tee, along with the significance of the location.

If you've ever played a C&C course, did you ever notice the women's tees ?

Can you please detail for me, in what way 2-3 tees helped the participation of largest growth period of the game?

That wasn't my statement in terms of cause and effect, that's your inability to understand what I wrote and your desire to distort what I stated.

So there can be no misunderstanding, I'll repeat what I stated.
Golf enjoyed it's greatest growth when there were only 2- 3 sets of tees.

As I really had no idea that this indeed was the reason, as you have argued throughout this thread, for the huge growth in golf participation.
That's NOT what I argued.
You must be very obtuse.
That's your interpretation of my argument.
I cited the facts.
Others, including you distorted the argument to suit your needs.
Please reread my statement above.

Golf enjoyed its greatest growth when there were only 2-3 sets of tees, so what makes you think that having six (6) sets of tees will grow the game ?.

Sven, thanks for your info on real examples of this in practice.

The list is irrelevant, utilization or lack thereof is the real key.

P.S.  You'd be better off letting sleeping dogs lie

[Patrick_Mucci]

This is like arguing that joy is a bad thing.  Come on.  This is for little kids.  To get them excited to play golf with their family and friends.
Are you kidding me ?

Now you have to bribe your kids by establishing "look alike" courses, including tees, plates, markers and score cards, or else the little darlings won't take a liking to golf.

Has the game lost it's inherent lure.

My kids and his peers don't think so.
They love playing and they don't need special "replica" mini-courses in order to peek their interest.  

Cost is essentially zero.    

That's just not true.

I hate kids' entitlement, but this isn't it.    It's a simple idea that has been very successful at our course

Then let me ask you.

Do the zero to 8 handicaps play from the beginning of the fairway ?
The 9-15 handicaps ?
The Women golfers, do they abandon their tees and play from the beginning of the fairway ?

This is just another "feel good" fad.
Jones, Nicklaus, Woods and every great golfer didn't play from "family" tees and they seemed to have taken to the game.

On a related issue.

Before a child is allowed on the course they should be proficient in terms of the safety and etiquette rules, and, there should be a minimum performance standard, wherein they're certified fit to play by the Head Pro or his designate.

[BDuryee]

Have those so strongly against the family markers actually seen them in use at a course? Based on the objections, particularly the most recent posts I'm thinking not?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Have those so strongly against the family markers actually seen them in use at a course?
Based on the objections, particularly the most recent posts I'm thinking not?

Burr, have those so strongly for their use actually seen them in use ?

I have to confess, with all the times I've been to and played Montclair, which has had a great junior program for decades, I've never seen them in use.

Now maybe that's just a coincidence.

P.S.  My nephew has been the club champion there for the last two years.
       My brother/nephew has been a member since 1995.
       I caddied there and played my high school home matches there.
       My father also caddied there.
       I essentially learned to play golf at Montclair and they didn't have any family tees to get me interested in the game.

       In fact, me and my friends, the Cestone brothers, Eddie Pickelsimer and others used to sneak onto the course as often as
       we could when we were barely teenagers, and it wasn't the lure of the "family" markers that fueled our desire.
       If you need "family" tees to fuel your interest or a kids interest in the game, have them take up another sport.

[Matthew Sander]

Pat,

You haven't seen them in use at Montclair, because there is NOTHING but a ground level plate to see. You would only see the plate if you found your ball within a few yards of one. There are no movable markers, no maintained tee beds, no groundworks, no drainage installed, NOTHING. They are only SINGLE (as in 1) plates on each hole signifying where it may be a good idea for young'uns to drop a ball. Whether or not the plates are necessary is another argument, but your insistence (reference your response to Brett Morrissy detailing footpads, maintenance, building costs) on painting these as something they are NOT has gone on far too long. Look at the picture in William's opening post, that is all that they are. There is nothing else to see, build, pay for, or argue about  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mathew,

Of course there's plenty to argue about.

Who plays from those tees ?

Adult men ?  Women ?

Could the kids not play from the same unadulterated spot without the plates ?

On the downsloped fairways of the first hole on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th nine, are the tees not level ?

As to the initial post, William referenced family "tees", not family markers.
In addition, he presented a formal scorecard reflecting two "family" courses.

It would be interesting to study the utilization patterns for these tees.
I'd want to go back to the first set of formal tees as soon as I could.

And, I don't see adults playing from these tees as many have implied.

[Matthew Sander]

Mathew,

Of course there's plenty to argue about.

Who plays from those tees ?

Adult men ?  Women ?

I don't know who plays from them. I know that they are targeted at children and possibly families playing with children.

Could the kids not play from the same unadulterated spot without the plates ?

They most certainly could.

On the downsloped fairways of the first hole on the 2nd, 3rd and 4th nine, are the tees not level ?

If that is where they are located, then they are not level. There are no measures taken to make these areas formalized tees. Think of it as starting a hole with an approach shot from the fairway as opposed to hitting away from a tee.

As to the initial post, William referenced family "tees", not family markers.
In addition, he presented a formal scorecard reflecting two "family" courses.

I'm not interested in wordsmithing what William wrote, but I do know, for a fact, that the program sponsored by the PGA of America has nothing to due with tee beds, maintained areas, two tee markers, or ANYTHING else that relates to what we think of as a physical "teeing ground" on a golf course.

It would be interesting to study the utilization patterns for these tees.

I can't argue with that. It could be an initiative that isn't readily used. I have no anecdotal data or first hand experience witnessing them in use. That said, it seems to be a minimal expense. I believe a previous post estimated around $50, how that is quantified, I do not know.

I'd want to go back to the first set of formal tees as soon as I could.

I'm sure many beginners and children share that same opinion.

And, I don't see adults playing from these tees as many have implied.

I wouldn't know, but you could be right.

[BDuryee]

Pat,

I have lurked long enough to know I shouldn't take the bait but here goes.

Yes those advocating for the markers have seen them in use and favor them. Read through the responses.

No, they are not designed for the whole family to play from.  They are designed so the family can play together, without mom or dad worring about pace of place and so kids enjoy themselves and keep mom and dad coming back. As I responded earlier, in my family, I tee from my tees my son tees from level two and my daughter tees from level one. Read through the previous responses and you will see no suggested parentents play from 1500 yards.

No I don't need the family markers to fuel my interest. I am doing just fine without them, but do the make it more enjoyable to take my kids out and getting to the stage where they can play regular tees faster, absolutely.  What all of the comment missed, is many kids like formality. They like having a marker, a scorecard, and yes they like keeping score. If you have ever coached tball, no matter how many times you call it a tie, the players/kids will tell you the score.

I'll give you lost word, but just because montclair has had a successfully jr program for years, doesn't mean others should not try new things when clubs are struggling for membership. Over 800 courses have adopted the plates. Could be a fad, but worth a try at little cost.

[Sven Nilsen]

Burr,

You'd be better off not taking the bait.  Pat's retorts are only rivaled in foulness and frequency by the crop-dusting of a 78 year-old man walking to the corner for the paper after a long night of beans and bourbon.

All the best,

Sven

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

I have lurked long enough to know I shouldn't take the bait but here goes.

Nothing ventured, nothing gained  

Yes those advocating for the markers have seen them in use and favor them. Read through the responses.

I did and some are advocating blindly, without any experience

No, they are not designed for the whole family to play from.  They are designed so the family can play together, without mom or dad worring about pace of place and so kids enjoy themselves and keep mom and dad coming back.

What does that mean?
Your answer implies that families couldn't play together without those tees, and nothing could be further from the truth.

I played with my kids and wife and never worried about pace of play.
My kids enjoyed themselves.  And, we all played from where we were most comfortable.

One of my complaints with ALL sports for youngsters is that they're too structured, too formalized, and that the kids should do what they're comfortable with.

I initiated a successful junior program at my club 30+ years ago.
I remained active in supervising that program for a decade.
And the kids didn't need special tees.

Do I think it does any harm ?
No, but the notion that they're necessary to grow the game is absurd

 As I responded earlier, in my family, I tee from my tees my son tees from level two and my daughter tees from level one. Read through the previous responses and you will see no suggested parentents play from 1500 yards.

Then call them "junior" tees

No I don't need the family markers to fuel my interest. I am doing just fine without them, but do the make it more enjoyable to take my kids out and getting to the stage where they can play regular tees faster, absolutely.  What all of the comment missed, is many kids like formality. They like having a marker, a scorecard, and yes they like keeping score. If you have ever coached tball, no matter how many times you call it a tie, the players/kids will tell you the score.

Starting at the beginning of the fairway, wouldn't the regular scorecard suffice for keeping score ?

And if just the kids are using them, why call them "family" tees, or is that just the "politically correct" phraseology rather than "junior" tees ?

Are we coddling our kids, trying to make everything easier for them ?

At what times can the kids play the course ?

I'll give you lost word, but just because montclair has had a successfully jr program for years, doesn't mean others should not try new things when clubs are struggling for membership.

I think clubs have to be creative and proactive in trying to build their membership ranks, but I don't see "family" tees as a motivating factor.

A really good Junior program where kids first learn the etiquette and the rules, then, playing proficiency vis a vis junior clinics, would seem to be
the way to go.

I'm a fervent  advocate of strong junior programs, but like "play it forward", I have my doubts about the efficacy of "family" tees.

Does it send a message of entitlement to a game where you have to earn your score.
Will it spawn more "fairness" at the club level.

Lastly, I don't see it having any effect on "growing" the game



Over 800 courses have adopted the plates. Could be a fad, but worth a try at little cost.

[William_G]

William,

Still unconvinced.  A welcome sign?  Pssh, give me a break.  I want to know some specifics.  Like what the average age of new golfers is in the US.  I want to know what the average per year spending is on golf by those under the age of 20.  I want to know of those that begin playing golf under the age of 10, what percentage are still with the game at 30 and 40.  I am surprised that we on this board have prattled on for over 6 pages on getting young juniors to play the game, when it is they that care the least about the mode in which they play.  A kid that wants to golf at 7 is going to be a golfer whether we put markers or scorecards out or not.  Why all the fuss over them? 

I want to know why there isn't more directed at the post-sports young men and women.  The cheerleaders, football players, baseball players, and volleyball players that pick up golf when their athletic life winds down.  It's only natural.  The vast majority of my golfing friends played golf after they played other things.  I think the worst thing we can do for young golfers is throw out welcome mats with ways to compete younger and younger.  I loved baseball more than anything at 13.  You couldn't pay me to play anymore.  Getting golfers competitive too young runs a risk of losing them later. 

I don't think this program really does anything.  That's my point.  Kids the age that this program is directed at are going to play either way.

Good point about athletes and playing golf.

A little rambling but...

Golf was always encouraged to me as a game I could play for a lifetime as well as enjoy socially. Yet, I was the one trying to flop my Hogan wedge over the back of our living room couch at age 10.

Loved baseball, football, basketball, track, tennis... but golf has stuck with me as the other sports drifted away while still there.

In general, a demanding individual game such as golf requires unique inidividuals to develop passion about it.

Just completed being the counselor for a Golf Merit Badge for my son's Boy Scout Troop and was totally excited about two kids (of eight) who became enthused about "golf". One was a competitive athleltic kid and the other more an individualistic goof ball kid who is reading Hogan's Fove Fundamentals.

Many athletes do end up with golf after so many performance ending injuries, and golf gives them that competetive fix.

This thread is about growing the game via a non-invasive effort, and not about my former athlete golfer friends.

Go Ducks

Thanks

[Tim Martin]

Have those so strongly against the family markers actually seen them in use at a course?
Based on the objections, particularly the most recent posts I'm thinking not?

Burr, have those so strongly for their use actually seen them in use ?

I have to confess, with all the times I've been to and played Montclair, which has had a great junior program for decades, I've never seen them in use.

Now maybe that's just a coincidence.

P.S.  My nephew has been the club champion there for the last two years.
       My brother/nephew has been a member since 1995.
       I caddied there and played my high school home matches there.
       My father also caddied there.
       I essentially learned to play golf at Montclair and they didn't have any family tees to get me interested in the game.

       In fact, me and my friends, the Cestone brothers, Eddie Pickelsimer and others used to sneak onto the course as often as
       we could when we were barely teenagers, and it wasn't the lure of the "family" markers that fueled our desire.
       If you need "family" tees to fuel your interest or a kids interest in the game, have them take up another sport.

I wonder what Eddie Pickelsimer would have thought about "Family Tees" back in the day. Certainly something to ponder as it relates to this perplexing issue.

[William_G]

Lastly, I don't see it having any effect on "growing" the game [/b][/size][/color]

WHY SO NEGATIVE? YOU'VE HAD A GOOD LIFE, NO?


Over 800 courses have adopted the plates. Could be a fad, but worth a try at little cost. 

[/quote]

[Garland Bayley]

Lastly, I don't see it having any effect on "growing" the game

WHY SO NEGATIVE? YOU'VE HAD A GOOD LIFE, NO?


Over 800 courses have adopted the plates. Could be a fad, but worth a try at little cost. 

What may be little cost to you (we've all witnessed the reports of your golf that undoubtedly have the cash registers ringing) may not be of little cost to the club member on a fixed income that thinks the club board members are a bunch of spendthrifts.

[Dan Herrmann]

Garland, our cost was about $20.  We're not using the plates - just some very inexpensive tee markers - actually just use one per hole (not a pair), and we have 3 different ones on six holes.  Works great.

[William_G]

Lastly, I don't see it having any effect on "growing" the game

WHY SO NEGATIVE? YOU'VE HAD A GOOD LIFE, NO?


Over 800 courses have adopted the plates. Could be a fad, but worth a try at little cost. 

What may be little cost to you (we've all witnessed the reports of your golf that undoubtedly have the cash registers ringing) may not be of little cost to the club member on a fixed income that thinks the club board members are a bunch of spendthrifts.

Gar,

The fixed income member, and you, should still be smart and positive enough to realize that growth of the game and other's continued or "new" membership at a club, is the best way to keep one's dues low.

thanks
 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Although I know it does happen, somehow the argument about most club members having fixed incomes seems a little out of whack.  And, most fixed income members are probably at CCA clubs or the like,and that $20 or even $20K if new tees are built cost is spread over 600 members, not 250.

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