[William_G]

another good idea to help grow the game









Do certified golf architects put these in their designs today?

Were family tees ever considered before? Where and when?

I know Bandon has the "friendly tees" but have not seen family tees before...seems like a good idea  

[Matthew Rose]

Occasionally I will see "junior" tees which are an extraneous set of markers in a funky color (usually orange or green or something) dropped somewhere in the middle of a fairway, maybe 50-100 yards in front of the forward tee. Generally they aren't marked on the scorecard and you don't know what the yardage or par is or anything..... just some tee markers dropped on a fairway as an afterthought.

I think this idea is better actually.... having an inlaid marker is a little more discrete. I like that there is a scorecard and map.

[Patrick_Mucci]

For a decade, many on this site were critical of multiple tees, now there seems to be a trend to move everyone forward.

You have to ask:  What's the purpose of multiple tees ?

Before answering you should consider that originally the rules called for the golfer to tee the ball up within ONE club length of the cup on the hole just completed.

It took about 100 years to change that rule.
That rule, after about a century, required the golfer to tee his ball up..............within TWO club lengths of the cup on the hole just completed.

So, I ask again, what's the purpose of all of these tees ?

Is it not for one purpose and one purpose only ?

To allow everyone to make pars ? ?  ?

At what point do you stop trying to cater to every level of golfer to soothe their egos ?
At what point do you stop trying to accommodate the lowest common denominator by making the effort to score par easier and easier and easier ?

[Emile Bonfiglio]

For a decade, many on this site were critical of multiple tees, now there seems to be a trend to move everyone forward.

You have to ask:  What's the purpose of multiple tees ?

So, I ask again, what's the purpose of all of these tees ?

Is it not for one purpose and one purpose only ?

To allow everyone to make pars ? ?  ?

At what point do you stop trying to cater to every level of golfer to soothe their egos ?

My 7 and 4 year old don't have egos that I'm trying to soothe, they have games I'm trying to develop. If you are a 30+HCP playing from the family tees, man up and get lessons and work it out on the range, not the course. 

The purpose is to provide a single place for an entire family to play golf, seems ok to me. There are tees for my wife, why not for my children. The day we start putting the Hacker Tees in is the day, I do something else with my time.

[William_G]

Patrick,

I think it speeds up play on a course where you can bring you family along.

Rather than building and maintaining a seperate executive course for the kids to play...you bring them on to the same course.

I think multiple tees are good for the game.

Where do certified golf course architects stand on this issue?

and thanks for not leading me on.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Emile,

I'm a huge proponent of Junior golf, but, in no way should there be tees for 4 year olds.

Let them tee up where the fairway begins.

As your kids get older, and improve, they won't want to play from the same tees you play from.

Why should a group be forced or encouraged to play from a "family" tee ?

William,

I think the "speeds up play" issue has some merit with a group with very diverse games.

Kids and beginners can always tee up at the begining of the fairway, especially since scoring should be a secondary consideration to having fun and spending "family" time.

Having as many as six (6) sets of tees bothers me, although, I understand the need if a course is a resort/residential course, or if it holds a PGA event.

Three sets of tees would seem to be the most required for a course that doesn't hold PGA events

[Bill_McBride]

For a decade, many on this site were critical of multiple tees, now there seems to be a trend to move everyone forward.

You have to ask:  What's the purpose of multiple tees ?

Before answering you should consider that originally the rules called for the golfer to tee the ball up within ONE club length of the cup on the hole just completed.

It took about 100 years to change that rule.
That rule, after about a century, required the golfer to tee his ball up..............within TWO club lengths of the cup on the hole just completed.

So, I ask again, what's the purpose of all of these tees ?

Is it not for one purpose and one purpose only ?

To allow everyone to make pars ? ?  ?

At what point do you stop trying to cater to every level of golfer to soothe their egos ?
At what point do you stop trying to accommodate the lowest common denominator by making the effort to score par easier and easier and easier ?

Patrick, we have those tees at our club, and they are only used by the younger juniors.  You can untwist your knickers.

[Cliff Hamm]

I haven't quite figured out why anyone cares where someone else plays from, unless it's way back and it affects pace of play.  If someone wants to play from 2k yards and shoot 36 who cares?  Ego?  That's not my problem.  If it makes the game more enjoyable that's a good thing.  Have as many tees as a course wants.  I don't see how that affects me one iota.

[Ben Sims]

William,

What is a certified golf course architect?

Secondly, I am not in favor of this concept for some of the reason Pat mentions.  But the biggest issue I have is that of intelligence.  I feel for our society as a whole if these "family tees" are required for people to understand how young golfers should begin the game.  The insinuation is that people aren't smart enough to do this on their own without needing a "crutch" marker.  That or club/course pros aren't doing enough to explan to their members where young-ones should be playing from.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I haven't quite figured out why anyone cares where someone else plays from, unless it's way back and it affects pace of play.  If someone wants to play from 2k yards and shoot 36 who cares?  Ego?  That's not my problem.  If it makes the game more enjoyable that's a good thing.  Have as many tees as a course wants.

I don't see how that affects me one iota.

Cliff,

What you should have said is that "you don't UNDERSTAND how that affects you one iota"

It affects you and everyone else, financially.

When you build and maintain six (6) sets of tees it drives up your dues/green fees.

One of the complaints about golf is the costs associated with the game.
Three sets of tees is sufficient for any membership.

Remind me again, how many sets of tees does ANGC have ?

Pine Valley ?

GCGC ?

NGLA ?

[William_G]

I haven't quite figured out why anyone cares where someone else plays from, unless it's way back and it affects pace of play.  If someone wants to play from 2k yards and shoot 36 who cares?  Ego?  That's not my problem.  If it makes the game more enjoyable that's a good thing.  Have as many tees as a course wants.

I don't see how that affects me one iota.

Cliff,

What you should have said is that "you don't UNDERSTAND how that affects you one iota"

It affects you and everyone else, financially.

When you build and maintain six (6) sets of tees it drives up your dues/green fees.

One of the complaints about golf is the costs associated with the game.
Three sets of tees is sufficient for any membership.

Remind me again, how many sets of tees does ANGC have ?

Pine Valley ?

GCGC ?

NGLA ?

Do those courses help grow the game by encouraging new players to play the game at their course?

Hanging out a Welcome sign for juniors, beginners etc.. helps increase play and decrease cost while using one facility.

The disks are not tees but markers.

Sorry to drive your post count up even higher, 4COL.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Cliff,

What you should have said is that "you don't UNDERSTAND how that affects you one iota"

It affects you and everyone else, financially.

When you build and maintain six (6) sets of tees it drives up your dues/green fees.

One of the complaints about golf is the costs associated with the game.
Three sets of tees is sufficient for any membership.

Remind me again, how many sets of tees does ANGC have ?

Pine Valley ?

GCGC ?

NGLA ?[/b][/size][/color]

Do those courses help grow the game by encouraging new players to play the game at their course?


ABSOLUTELY, why would you think that they wouldn't ?

Hanging out a Welcome sign for juniors, beginners etc.. helps increase play and decrease cost while using one facility.

NO it doesn't.
Tell me how constructing and maintaining 18 or more additional tees decreases costs or increases play.

Non-golfers aren't golfing members of golf courses, so who are these "beginners" you're referencing ?

Juniors take interest, usually, when their parents play.

Golf's greatest boom was when there weren't a gazillion set of tees to accommodate every golfer or prospective golfer.
How do you account for that ?

For beginners and juniors, The progression I've seen is from the fairway to the forward tees, to the regular tees to the back tees.
That's worked pretty well for the last century hasn't it ?
The disks are not tees but markers.

Sorry to drive your post count up even higher, 4COL.
[/quote]

[Bill_McBride]

Those are not constructed tees at our clubs, they are just the medal circle plates set in a reasonably level area of the fairway.   It's a good and inexpensive to let the little kids feel that they are playing the formal course as they get ready to move back to the forward tees.   No extra cost because these are not an extra set of constructed tees. 

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat, you premise to protect par as the reason for not providing teeing grounds to support a golfer skill levels seems small minded, with some out of date connection to the past.

For the golf world that I live in, encouraging more people to play a game, especially on courses that require decent carries off the tee, offering the game of golf as a sport or pastime that is first and foremost fun to play should be every golf clubs goal, if they do in fact believe that they can impact the growth of this great game.

What junior, or family, or aging golfer that has lost much strength but not love of the game, can play PVGC, a course you evidence as a reason not to install extra tees.

Absolute beginners, getting to know the game, should be encouraged by their teacher, coach etc to drop their ball at 150m markers, to actually play a full round of golf on a short course, then a set of markers at the beginning of the fairway, doesn't hurt anyone else playing the course, and saves them looking for balls off the tee and slowing everyone down. This is where I think the additional tee should be added, and I like the idea of calling it the 'family tees' covers a nice broad demographic.

Pat, is there a connection between your reasoning above and the handicap system in place by the USGA?

In Australia, we mostly play comp as I'm sure you know, where a fair handicap is very important, but a golfer playing off the members tee, will never have to compete against another golfer playing off a front fairway tee. So why does it matter where they play from as long as they are enjoying this great game?

I am in the camp that believe that we all those of us who love the gamenhave a responsibility to grow participation in golf in any small way we can,  and not just leaving it to the governing bodies.

Golf should be fun and enjoyable, the chasing of a score comes later, and I think the small score card the club above produced for those short tees would make for a lot of fun - as you say, as skill level increases then golfers can always move further back to meet their skill level.

[Dan Herrmann]

Patrick,
I'm proud to be a member at a family-oriented club that uses these markers for young children.  These kids are thrilled to be out there playing and they've graduated into some very good high school age golfers.

We don't have any kids, but I know that parents with children that play these tees are very happy that their kids have taken up golf with a zeal usually reserved for XBOX games.

Tell me this isn't what we need to grow the game:

[Sven Nilsen]

What I learned from this thread:

Golf is only meant to be played by stuffy old blowhards who pay their dues.

[Ben Sims]

Here's a novel idea, why not have children/beginners play from a flat level area in the fairway? 

In effect, these markers are advertisement, nothing more.  It is another hollow attempt by the PGA to involve itself, to tout its own importance.  Anyone with any sense was using this tactic for kiddos for a long time. 

[Mark Johnson]

when i started playing golf at age 6, i started playing from the 100 yards markers.

When I could break 45 from these markers, i graduated to the 150 yard markers.

When I could break 40 3 times in a row from these markets, I then moved to the forward / ladies tees.


The results -- I developed a phenomenal short game at a young age which still exists (though not to its original extent today).

This has nothing to do with egos, its about game development.  Admittedly, the side effects of this is a quicker pace of play on a sunday afternoon.  not a bad positive externality.

[Howard Riefs]

Kiawah does a good job with Family Tees, which are on the all courses other than TOC. Tees are placed in the middle of the fairway, making each hole no longer than 250 yards. In the late afternoon (after 5pm), it's $45 for adults and free for kids to play 9 holes together from these tees.

http://www.kiawahresort.com/golf-course-videos/tour-our-golf-courses/viewvideo/198/learn-to-golf-on-kiawah-island/the-family-tee-program/

Grow the game.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Those are not constructed tees at our clubs, they are just the medal circle plates set in a reasonably level area of the fairway.   It's a good and inexpensive to let the little kids feel that they are playing the formal course as they get ready to move back to the forward tees.   No extra cost because these are not an extra set of constructed tees. 

Bill,

Then they're not fixed, constructed  tees with a matching fixed scorecard, but merely a set of moveable markers.[

That's an entirely different situation./b]

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I learned from this thread:

Golf is only meant to be played by stuffy old blowhards who pay their dues.

Sven,

Then you're either a moron or you can't read or......possibly both

[Bill_McBride]

Those are not constructed tees at our clubs, they are just the medal circle plates set in a reasonably level area of the fairway.   It's a good and inexpensive to let the little kids feel that they are playing the formal course as they get ready to move back to the forward tees.   No extra cost because these are not an extra set of constructed tees.  

Bill,

Then they're not fixed, constructed  tees with a matching fixed scorecard, but merely a set of moveable markers.[

That's an entirely different situation./b]

As I said, not a problem.  No additional set of fixed tees.  These are "family tees.".     Are you a moron?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

Kids playing golf, including formal junior programs, have been around for 50 plus years at many, many, many clubs.

This is nothing new, yet you and others are acting as if this is a revolutionary new phenomenon.

I instituted a comprehensive Junior program at my club 40+ years ago.
The greatest resistance to playing time for juniors came from the women golfers who objected to their tee times being shared.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, you premise to protect par as the reason for not providing teeing grounds to support a golfer skill levels seems small minded, with some out of date connection to the past.

Brett,

It's disingenuous of you to substitute "teeing grounds" for "tees".

You know that I, and others, were referencing "constructed" formal tees and not just a set of temporary moveable "markers"

I referenced the cost to construct and maintain 18 additional tees, so you and others knew what I was referring to, yet you chose to substitute movable "markers" for earthen works.


For the golf world that I live in, encouraging more people to play a game, especially on courses that require decent carries off the tee, offering the game of golf as a sport or pastime that is first and foremost fun to play should be every golf clubs goal, if they do in fact believe that they can impact the growth of this great game.

Then why did the game enjoy it's greatest growth under my two to three tee configuration ?  ?  ?

What junior, or family, or aging golfer that has lost much strength but not love of the game, can play PVGC, a course you evidence as a reason not to install extra tees.

Me and a lot of other guys over age 70.
And, that's from the regular tees.


Absolute beginners, getting to know the game, should be encouraged by their teacher, coach etc to drop their ball at 150m markers, to actually play a full round of golf on a short course, then a set of markers at the beginning of the fairway, doesn't hurt anyone else playing the course, and saves them looking for balls off the tee and slowing everyone down.


You guys must not be able to read.
Where was it written, by anyone, that you couldn't do that ?  ?  ?

In fact, didn't I suggest that ?  ? ?[

Did you NOT read my reply # 5 ?  ?  ?/b]

This is where I think the additional tee should be added, and I like the idea of calling it the 'family tees' covers a nice broad demographic.

Constructing and maintaining an additional set of 18 tees for that purpose is a waste of money.
In addition, the utilization of those tees will be minimal.
You can't justify their cost

Pat, is there a connection between your reasoning above and the handicap system in place by the USGA?

No, my reasoning has to do with cost, utilization and the false notion some have regarding "growing" the game.
The game experienced it's greatest growth without separate tees for every level of golfer.
I'm not a fan of altering the game to accommodate the lowest common denominator

In Australia, we mostly play comp as I'm sure you know, where a fair handicap is very important, but a golfer playing off the members tee, will never have to compete against another golfer playing off a front fairway tee. So why does it matter where they play from as long as they are enjoying this great game?

Then, why not construct tees 100 yards from each green so that people without power can enjoy it even more ?

I am in the camp that believe that we all those of us who love the gamenhave a responsibility to grow participation in golf in any small way we can,  and not just leaving it to the governing bodies.

The governing bodies have NEVER been responsible for growing the game.

The game grew at it's greatest rate when there weren't tees for every level of golfer.
How do you account for that ?

Golf should be fun and enjoyable, the chasing of a score comes later, and I think the small score card the club above produced for those short tees would make for a lot of fun - as you say, as skill level increases then golfers can always move further back to meet their skill level.
"Tees" or "markers" ?
There's a huge difference in cost.

[Sven Nilsen]

What I learned from this thread:

Golf is only meant to be played by stuffy old blowhards who pay their dues.

Sven,

Then you're either a moron or you can't read or......possibly both

Pat:

All I had to do was read the first two posts and your reply thereto to comprehend that you had no idea what you were talking about.  No one was discussing building separate tee boxes. 

If we're going to start labeling folks as morons and/or illiterate, you can probably guess who my nomination would be.  Same goes for the blowhard award.

Sven

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