Whom do we have on the inside at Golf Magazine?

[Jud_T]

I'm not sure what the criteria for this assessment is.  Which is the best television venue?  Which provides the best test for the pros?  Which is the best course for us mortals to play?  Seems a bit of a fruit salad.  I have to go reread this to get some sanity back:

http://www.mnuzzo.com/pdf/GAV5.pdf

[Morgan Clawson]

It would be nice is someone came up with something new to say about Hazeltine.

That quote is over 40 years old now.   

Today's course bears very little resemblance to the 1970 edition.

The 16th hole which is pictured in the slide show has been changed from a par 3 to a terrifying par 4.

[Jon Wiggett]

David,

RL&SA has a good set of green complexes and the a back nine which few courses rival from a GCA point of view. The playing surfaces have plenty of contours to make for interesting play. As for no views of the see well you don't see the ocean from Royal Birkdale either and I fail to see what is wrong with having the clubhouse so close to the green but maybe you could enlighten me.

To me it seemed that RL&SA was included as a token gesture so as not to appear to be just criticising US courses. The criticisms were in some cases factually wrong and in others statements without saying what was wrong in the view of the writer. It is obvious to me that the writer of this piece has either no appreciation of good links GCA or had not even been to the course.

Jon

No idea whether the criticisms were right or wrong, Jon, just saying that most of them have been expressed elsewhere, including on this website.  If learned members of GolfClubAtlas call it the worst course on the Open Rota, then not sure we can be too critical of someone else jumping to the same conclusion.  Not that it isn't debatable, just that it isn't unreasonable.  I am not defending every selection on the list, just that it is a reasonable list.

David,

I stand by what I have already said. The only reason it is on the list is they didn't want a purely US list. Their reasons just don't stand up even the one about not seeing the ocean. Hell ANGC doesn't have an ocean view does that detract from it?

Jon

[Rick Shefchik]

It would be nice is someone came up with something new to say about Hazeltine.

That quote is over 40 years old now.   

Today's course bears very little resemblance to the 1970 edition.

The 16th hole which is pictured in the slide show has been changed from a par 3 to a terrifying par 4.

This might be a good place to reproduce a passage from Dan Jenkins's coverage of the 1970 Open at Hazeltine in Sports Illustrated. He thought the pros were over the top in their whining about the course (which, as Morgan points out, is far different and -- in most cases -- better than it was 42 years ago):

"None of which is to argue that Hazeltine ranks among America's premier courses. It will never be in the category of Merion, next year's Open site, or Pebble Beach, which has the Open in '72. It is no Pine Valley or Seminole or lots of those places that make splendid calendar pictures in the offices of insurance executives. But it is better than two courses the Open has been played on in the past seven years -- Bellerive and Congressional -- and it has its memorable holes, especially those with water."

So even then, it was considered better than two of the other courses on this new list of bad majors venues; Hazeltine has that going for it, which is nice.

[Jeff Shelman]

I'm playing Hazeltine tomorrow. We have a nice group.

I know two things that will happen: I will have a good time and I will make at least one double bogey.

I actually think the golf course is pretty decent and more interesting than many give it credit for. The standard rip is that it is too much of a long slog and is boring.

Some of that is true, but the 2009 PGA Championship swung heavily in Y.E. Yang's direction when he made an aggressive play on a short par 4 and then chipped in from just off the green for birdie. He clinched the title when he bounced back from a bogey with a great hybrid and birdied the challenging 18th hole.

I didn't think that was a boring finish.

[Richard Choi]

I would argue that the first and most compelling argument one could make concerning the worst major championship venue is one where the best players were not the ones who were in contention and eventually won the tournament.  After all, isn't that the reason for having the event - the best players playing the best golf?  I haven't done the research so I cannot point to this with respect to any particular course but I do believe it is the best criteria. 

Jerry, that criteria would be fine if we have played hundreds of majors on the same course, but based on how rare it is for any course to host a major, that kind of criteria would be at the whims of random chances and would not be valid.

Put it another way, Augusta National has had its share of dud winners. But on balance, it has performed well over the years.

[Adam Clayman]

If one considers the Ryder cup a major championship, Celtic and K club fit.

[Jerry Kluger]

Richard: I agree that a course should be played many times in order to have a representative sample but the underlying premise is that if the best players are at the top of the leaderboard, an argument can certainly be made that the course was a good test.  I don't think that there is any argument that Rory was the best golfer at Kiawah last week.  I have always felt that the Players at Sawgrass had a great field but it often didn't have the then best players at the top of the leaderboard.

[Kevin Lynch]

Jerry, that criteria would be fine if we have played hundreds of majors on the same course, but based on how rare it is for any course to host a major, that kind of criteria would be at the whims of random chances and would not be valid.

Exhibit A: Oak Hill - Nicklaus / Trevino / Strange / Micheel - pretty much covered the entire spectrum there.

[Ronald Montesano]

So, by that progression, the winner of the 2013 PGA at Oak Hill will be Marco Dawson (who I'm sure is a fine guy.)

[Tony Ristola]

Surely some minds will differ about some of the selections. My question is... where is Kemper Lakes?

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Please !! I hate to even see the name Oak Hill on any page that is talking about worsts, someone might get the wrong idea.
As for the placement of kaiwah on the list...they must be kidding.
The course looked specatcular two weeks ago, unlucky with the rain, otherwise he event would have been even better.
Kemper Lakes should top any such list, and even bringingRyder Cup venues into the equation, opens up all kids iof possibilities.
When was that event last held on a good course in Europe?
Way back at Walton Heath in the days of Trevino, Rogers, Nelson, Kite, Pate et al !!!!

[Jon Wiggett]

even bringingRyder Cup venues into the equation, opens up all kids iof possibilities.
When was that event last held on a good course in Europe?
Way back at Walton Heath in the days of Trevino, Rogers, Nelson, Kite, Pate et al !!!!

Michael,

what makes it worse is that when it is held in Scotland with so many great courses and having chosen Gleneagles which has one of the worlds great classics they are going to play it over a really poor course

Jon