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Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« on: August 13, 2012, 10:49:49 AM »
No debate over what occurred - after watching video replay (which can retroactively impact an outcome after watching and rewatching),  Carl Petterson was assessed a 2 stroke penaly for moving moving a leaf with his club in a hazard.

The leaf movement obviously had no impact no Carl's  shot or outcome of the stroke or ultimately the event , BUT Yahoo has picked this up.  Instead of touting how the winner Rory M. dominated the event, Yahoo chose focus on the the rules of golf and how actions, even accidential and of no consiquence to the ultimate result are penalized.

Not really the story you want up on top of the media coverage, when the game of golf is struggling to keep players and interset growing.  Just my $0.02. 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2012, 11:22:48 AM »
I don't think people will take up or quit the game because of the rules. Nor do I think that Rory's win will attract people, unless he drops his girlfriend and goes on tour with One Direction "Rory you swing at that ball like nobody else...that's what makes you champion."
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Howard Riefs

  • Karma: +0/-0
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2012, 11:48:46 AM »
Geoff has me blocked and I can't access his site. Geoff and Google have a zero-tolerance policy.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Brent Hutto

Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2012, 11:49:39 AM »
On the occasions that I play a ball out of a hazard (which BTW is totally optional, to be safe you can just proceed under the one-stroke penalty drop option) the only kind of stroke I make is an exaggerated downward chop onto the back of the ball. Just not worth running the risk of the sort of penalty we saw yesterday.

I think Tour players are so used to getting the benefit of the doubt on rulings that it would be easy to take risks that just aren't worth it. He was working his club down in an amongst the "stuff" in that water hazard as though he were getting ready to play a shot from the rough or something. I don't think it even crossed his mind that something could result in a two-stroke penalty.

But it a darned hazard and he shouldn't be in there doing everything short of literally grounding the club before taking his shot. I see them doing stuff like that on Tour all the time and it seems nuts to me. Then again, some of the stuff they'll get a Rules official to let them get away with seems nuts as well...

David Cronheim

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2012, 11:52:44 AM »
My issue is that if it happened away from the HD-glare of the camera on a Thursday morning, it would not have been a penalty. It is unfair that some players have every shot scrutinized on super slow-mo video replay and others do not. I recall a similar penalty being called on Michelle Wi some years ago. Either every shot should be analyzed on video by a video official (this is the NHL's approach to goals) or none should be. For one, I'd like to see golf do away entirely with penalties imposed retroactively by video.
Check out my golf law blog - Tee, Esq.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2012, 11:53:07 AM »
As I understand the rule, it seems like the ruling was correct.

But ...

I would like to hear a defense of the rule as applied to the movement of a loose impediment incidental to making a reasonable swing.

Relatedly, I don't understand Feherty's comment that this rule might be okay for amateurs but shouldn't be applied to the professional game.  Setting aside any fundamental objections to applying different set of rules, what's the argument that this rule is good as applied to amateurs but bad as applied to professionals?  Seems easier to me to say that it's right or wrong across the board.

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2012, 11:55:01 AM »
He really wasn't in a hazard. he was in grass that led into a hazard. The arbitrary red line is the issue that should be addressed, if it's such a big deal.

Save it, all you who feel compelled to point out that this type of course marking is standard and commonplace. That's the problem.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2012, 11:56:34 AM »
On the occasions that I play a ball out of a hazard (which BTW is totally optional, to be safe you can just proceed under the one-stroke penalty drop option) the only kind of stroke I make is an exaggerated downward chop onto the back of the ball. Just not worth running the risk of the sort of penalty we saw yesterday.


Brent, this seems likely an entirely accurate assessment of the incentives the rule creates.  But why is that a good thing?  Don't we want to encourage people to try to play the ball as it lies instead of taking a penalty, even if they are in a hazard?  And doesn't turning many shots out of vegetated hazards into games of two-shot-penalty-roulette unreasonably discourage what should be a reasonable play?

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2012, 11:56:44 AM »
...
I would like to hear a defense of the rule as applied to the movement of a loose impediment incidental to making a reasonable swing.
...

He was in a hazard. Why should he be able to make a "reasonable swing". He needs to make a swing that does not violate the rules of golf. We need less bellyaching and more adherence to play it as it lies.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

William_G

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2012, 12:00:35 PM »
My issue is that if it happened away from the HD-glare of the camera on a Thursday morning, it would not have been a penalty. It is unfair that some players have every shot scrutinized on super slow-mo video replay and others do not. I recall a similar penalty being called on Michelle Wi some years ago. Either every shot should be analyzed on video by a video official (this is the NHL's approach to goals) or none should be. For one, I'd like to see golf do away entirely with penalties imposed retroactively by video.

the HD glare should be used more positively in pro golf broadcasts, penalty finding is fine and dandy, but...how about the course itself?

the shot tracer is a great example...need more of that, lots more...how about putt tracer, anything!

the golf coverage on Sunday opened with Nantz talking how many great storylines there were 4COL.... you are on TV dude..let's talk about what's on the tube!!!!!!!!!
It's all about the golf!

Will MacEwen

Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2012, 12:04:15 PM »
My issue is that if it happened away from the HD-glare of the camera on a Thursday morning, it would not have been a penalty. It is unfair that some players have every shot scrutinized on super slow-mo video replay and others do not. I recall a similar penalty being called on Michelle Wi some years ago. Either every shot should be analyzed on video by a video official (this is the NHL's approach to goals) or none should be. For one, I'd like to see golf do away entirely with penalties imposed retroactively by video.

The rules official in the group noticed it in real time. 

I think it would be unfair to the field if CP didn't call the penalty on himself, and he certainly had no inclination to do so.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 12:25:54 PM »
He was in a hazard. Why should he be able to make a "reasonable swing". He needs to make a swing that does not violate the rules of golf. We need less bellyaching and more adherence to play it as it lies.


Garland, how does the current rule promote playing the ball as it lies?  Doesn't the current rule promote taking a one-shot penalty and dropping even though one has a playable shot?

Brent Hutto

Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 12:35:08 PM »
What principle is it that says the Rules of Golf are supposed to encourage you to play from water hazards?

If that's the purpose of the Rules then you ought to be able to ground your club, clear away everything that might affect your swing, hell you might as well drain the swamp while you're at it.

What part of the word "hazard" is not supposed to apply to a red-staked water hazard?

You guys amaze me. It's a bad thing to let players ground their clubs in a bunker but a water hazard shouldn't put any restrictions on the player's ability to play a normal shot. Maybe that's just one more example of this site's fixation on sand bunkers as the be-all and end-all of golf course design.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2012, 12:40:07 PM »
A PGA Tour Pro should know the rules better than anyone else.

That's their profession and they should be experts in that area.

It's akin to an attorney not knowing the law, a physician not knowing anatomy or a CPA not knowing FASB.

I believe similar situation happened or almost happened to Jay Sigal at a Mid-amateur.

No whining about the rules that govern your profession, you should know them all, and certainly to the degree that you inquire as to the full ramifications of a particular situation.

The rules have evolved over centuries and they help protect the integrity of yhe game.

Alex Miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2012, 12:46:26 PM »
A defense for the rule/ruling.

A leaf, just like a stick or loose rock is a loose impediment. While in this instance it wouldn't have affected his shot, the rule protects people from clearing a path to the ball in their backswing. If it were a rock or a stick then perhaps it would be viewed differently, but we can not have different rules for different loose impediments.

It's Carl's job to know the rules and ask the right questions. While it's unfortunate that the rules official didn't offer more help in the rules regarding loose impediments in this case, it's not necessarily his job to do so.

I think the rule and ruling were correct and necessary.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2012, 12:49:27 PM »
Brent, my likely ill-informed responses to your thoughts below:

What principle is it that says the Rules of Golf are supposed to encourage you to play from water hazards?

The principle that the rules should be designed to encourage you to play the ball as it lies, rather than taking a penalty stroke.  Sure, that principle isn't absolute -- one could strongly discourage taking an unplayable lie if one made the penalty two strokes rather than one, for example, but the unfairness of such a rule would outweigh the benefit.  But it seems like, all else equal, most of us would rather see people hitting the ball where they find it rather than taking a penalty and dropping it somewhere else.

If that's the purpose of the Rules then you ought to be able to ground your club, clear away everything that might affect your swing, hell you might as well drain the swamp while you're at it.

Not if the overarching principle is "you should be able to play the ball as you find it, but not improve your lie or swing."  I recognize that it's hard to come up with a rule to implement that principle (and that some might disagree with the principle itself), but there's a clear line between doing everything Brent talks about and accidentally moving something while trying to hit the golf ball.


You guys amaze me. It's a bad thing to let players ground their clubs in a bunker but a water hazard shouldn't put any restrictions on the player's ability to play a normal shot. Maybe that's just one more example of this site's fixation on sand bunkers as the be-all and end-all of golf course design.

No hypocrisy here.  I would have been on the other side of the bunker argument too, and I imagine that I'm in the distinct minority on this rule.

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2012, 01:00:18 PM »
According to the GGP Petterson asked the walking rules official if he could brush the grass on his bckswing and received a yes answer. He maybe never saw the leaf before his backswing dislodged it.
When I was officiating near Eugene Friday and Saturday there was a hazard with similar condkitions (growing green grass and yellowish loose impediments) I made sure that the players knew what they could expect.

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2012, 01:04:54 PM »
When I saw the stroke live it caught my eye because there was a lot of grass moving during the backswing.  It is a bad practice to be moving long grass in a hazard on a backswing because of precisely this result - grass start moving and you never know if some loose impediment might move also.  What is wrong with taking extra club and starting your backswing from the waist?  Then there is no danger of grounding the club or moving loose objects.  
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse

JLahrman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2012, 01:45:03 PM »
Does someone have the text of the exact rule that applied here?

I was surprised by this one. Obviously you can't move a loose impediment in a hazard, either by hand or with a practice swing.

But I don't understand why you can't move it during a reasonable swing.

Does it apply only to the backswing? What if the leaf had been right up against the back of the ball? It would have been impossible for Petterson to make contact without making contact with the loose impediment.

Jay Cox

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2012, 01:50:29 PM »
The rule is 13-4.  The operative subpart is c:

Quote
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

My understanding is that "making a stroke at a ball" has been construed to include the downswing but not the backswing (i.e., to start at the same point where a player could not stop his swing without the stroke counting) - but others here will know about the interpretation of the rule far better than I do.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2012, 02:00:12 PM »
How big does something have to be in order to be considered a loose impediment?  If Carl P brushes the grass on his way back, something loose (a grain of sand on a blade of grass) probably gets dislodged even if he doesn't dislodge the small leaf. 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2012, 02:06:27 PM »
Does someone have the text of the exact rule that applied here?

I was surprised by this one. Obviously you can't move a loose impediment in a hazard, either by hand or with a practice swing.

But I don't understand why you can't move it during a reasonable swing.

That's what Michelle Wie thought too before she was penalized.

Does it apply only to the backswing? Yes

What if the leaf had been right up against the back of the ball? It would have been impossible for Petterson to make contact without making contact with the loose impediment.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #23 on: August 13, 2012, 03:13:29 PM »
The rule is 13-4.  The operative subpart is c:

Quote
Except as provided in the Rules, before making a stroke at a ball that is in a hazard (whether a bunker or a water hazard) or that, having been lifted from a hazard, may be dropped or placed in the hazard, the player must not:
a. Test the condition of the hazard or any similar hazard;
b. Touch the ground in the hazard or water in the water hazard with his hand or a club; or
c. Touch or move a loose impediment lying in or touching the hazard.

My understanding is that "making a stroke at a ball" has been construed to include the downswing but not the backswing (i.e., to start at the same point where a player could not stop his swing without the stroke counting) - but others here will know about the interpretation of the rule far better than I do.

Far more than being construed, it is defined.
Stroke
A “stroke’’ is the forward movement of the club made with the intention of striking at and moving the ball, but if a player checks his downswing voluntarily before the clubhead reaches the ball he has not made a stroke.

Wade Whitehead

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Ruling yesterday @ The PGA Hole #1
« Reply #24 on: August 13, 2012, 03:58:49 PM »
The PGA should have just declared the hazards "wet areas," then there would have been no penalty.

WW