Cabot Cliffs

[Greg Beaulieu]

Bob Weeks, recently ex of Score Golf, now of TSN, calls it a masterpiece:

http://www.tsn.ca/cabot-cliffs-is-a-masterpiece-1.324321


And from the course website, the highlight reel:

https://www.cabotlinks.com/cabots-canada-day-highlight-reel/

[Don Hyslop]

So Crenshaw led thing off at the Cliffs and shot a 73.

[Bill_McBride]

So Crenshaw led thing off at the Cliffs and shot a 73.

How did everyone do at 16?   We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular!   How did the wind affect the tee shot?   What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?

[Don Hyslop]

Fortunately the four tees at 16 allow you to take as much risk as you think you can handle. here are your yardage choices;176, 148, 119, 89.

[Don Hyslop]

Matt Ginella on the Golf Channel this morning was raving about Cabot Cliffs. Here is a tweet he issued a couple of days ago.
Matt Ginella ‏@MattGinellaGC  · Jul 1 
You know what I think of Pebble. Best public in the U.S. But hole-by-hole, match play, Cabot Cliffs wins 12 to 6. 

[Jim Nugent]

Matt Ginella on the Golf Channel this morning was raving about Cabot Cliffs. Here is a tweet he issued a couple of days ago.
Matt Ginella ‏@MattGinellaGC  · Jul 1 
You know what I think of Pebble. Best public in the U.S. But hole-by-hole, match play, Cabot Cliffs wins 12 to 6.

Let me guess: Pebble wins 6 through 10, plus 18.  Cabot Cliffs wins the rest. 

[Robert Thompson]

Played the course twice in the last couple of days.


Thoughts:


1) It is still construction golf. A lot of bunkers without sand, greens slow and fuzzy.
2) It is really spectacular -- and not just 16, but 2, 5, 6, 9, 10, 15, 16, 17, 18...
3) The holes away from the water -- 3, 4, 7, 11, 12, 13 -- are all exceptional. In fact, 11 is one of the best on the course, along with the great 7th, a par five up a hill.
4) 15 is a fascinating par 5 that is tons of fun to play. Tackle the left side of the fairway and you can go at this 600-yard par five in two. It hit it with two 3-woods.
5) 16 is tough into the wind. We played it from the tips in a good wind and it was a 4-iron or hybrid at 180 yards, playing 205. The tees one up yesterday in a gentle wind were at 160, but it played closer to 170. The green is very large and there's a lot of room.
6) 17 confounds me. Tee shot is difficult, but I think the rough surrounding the fairway will be thinned. From the back into a hard wind we struggled to get a driver or three wood in play in our group. Yesterday, in a lesser wind two of us put drivers on the green. It would take some time to determine where to hit your shot and it is more uphill off the tee than it appears.
7) It is, to my way of thinking, one of the best public courses I've played (alongside the greats in the UK, which I'd include). The discussion group for this would include the best in the world -- Cypress, Pebble, Pacific Dunes, Royal Dornoch. And yes, it is very much in that discussion.
I really, really want to play this again in great shape to make some other determinations that I can't draw conclusions about given the slow greens.

[Tom_Doak]

How did everyone do at 16?   We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular!   How did the wind affect the tee shot?   What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?

In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben.  The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order.  I made the 3. 

[Bill_McBride]

How did everyone do at 16?   We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular!   How did the wind affect the tee shot?   What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?

In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben.  The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order.  I made the 3.

Ok, who made the ace?   

[RJ_Daley]

How did everyone do at 16?   We were fortunate enough to get a look at the hole in August 2013 and it is spectacular!   How did the wind affect the tee shot?   What did it play, 180 with 160 carry?

In very calm conditions, I witnessed the first hole in one on #16 this evening, playing in a threesome with Ran and Ben.  The three of us actually made 3, 2, and 1 ... not in that order.  I made the 3.

TD, that is epic. 

[Matt Kardash]

How does the Cliffs compare to the Links? I'm assuming the Cliffs is more epic, while the Links is more intimate?

[Sam Krume]

Don't know if this has been covered, but will the 6,6,6 combination slow pace of play?
I actually think the balance is pretty neat. I know I've never played a championship course with that many 5's and 3's, and that few 4's.
You'd certainly think that the power player would be at huge advantage if the 5's are reachable in two.

Charlie,
Pace of play, I guess would be fine. Never had a slow round at The Berkshire.

[Charlie_Bell]

So #16 plays as a par 2… 

[Tom_Doak]

So #16 plays as a par 2…

Ben and Ran tease each other a lot on the course, and Ben said when we got to the tee that a hole in one to the left hand pin really shouldn't count, because you can bounce the ball down in there from the left, which he then proceeded to do.  Ran's did go straight at it.  When we got up and only saw two balls on the green I figured Ben had gone through the green on the right; neither Ran or I believed Ben at first when he said it was in the hole.


Going back out this afternoon to see if lightning can strike twice in the same place.

[HarryBrinkerhoffDoyleIV_aka_Barry]

Tom - is feedback allowed, or would you end up being censored?  Is Cabot Cliffs in the running for US edition #2 Gourmet Choice?

[Tom_Doak]

Tom - is feedback allowed, or would you end up being censored?  Is Cabot Cliffs in the running for US edition #2 Gourmet Choice?

Harold:


Why don't you use your real name?


Cabot Links and Cabot Cliffs will be included in Volume 3 of The Confidential Guide.  [Volume 2 is for winter destinations in the Americas, which Cabot is not.]


Will one or the other be in the running for the Gourmet's Choice?  Probably so.  However, note that I will choose no more than one course for any architect for the Gourmet's Choice of each volume, and Coore & Crenshaw have three other strong candidates for their place in Volume 3 [Sand Hills, Friars Head, Bandon Trails].  So it's certainly not a slam dunk entry, any more than my own entry will be [Pacific Dunes, Ballyneal, Rock Creek, Dismal River, etc.].  There's a lot of depth there.

[Matt Kardash]

Which is why Cabot Links is a slam dunk gourmet choice for Rod Whitman...you would think.

[Tom_Doak]

Which is why Cabot Links is a slam dunk gourmet choice for Rod Whitman...you would think.

Matt:


I liked Cabot Links a lot, and I've known Rod for a very long time. 


But there are no slam dunks in Volume 3.  It's the deepest region of the world for golf courses ... all of the northeast, the mid Atlantic, the Great Lakes, the sand hills, the Pacific Northwest, and Canada.  It's going to be the hardest one from which to choose 18 courses.  Ran has asked for his three already, and there is one surprise choice -- a course I have not visited and know very little about. 

[Matt Kardash]

Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.

I will always cherish trying to figure out how to get my putt anywhere near the pin when I was short right on what is now the Par 5 8th (old 13, I think), when the pin was front left. The dips and swales you have to negotiate on that putt are quite something.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.

Very interesting, Matt. Rod and I spent a lot of time on this aesthetic question in the early planning and early construction stages at Cabot Links; especially with regard to making the bunkers "Scottish", as Rod likes to say.


We had just come from Sagebrush, where there are big rugged bunkers everywhere and felt like the Cabot Links site really suggested a "less flashy" course in a very traditional Scottish way.

[Matt Kardash]

Jeff,


That was exactly how I interpreted it.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.

Matt:


I'm not sure "courageous" is the right word, but it was nice to see a course where the shaping didn't attempt to "wow" me.  It's not better or worse, it's just different ... but different is what stands out.

[Bill_McBride]

Tom, I don't know if you felt this way, but I felt like Cabot Links was refreshingly not flashy. I think it is a courageous course in that sense. I think most designers (maybe even yourself) would have tried to put more flash and pizazz into the look of the course. From photos it appears Cabot Cliffs is more flashy. I am not saying Cabot Links it is better or worse for that reason, but I do think it is courageous and I applaud him for it.

I will always cherish trying to figure out how to get my putt anywhere near the pin when I was short right on what is now the Par 5 8th (old 13, I think), when the pin was front left. The dips and swales you have to negotiate on that putt are quite something.

Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links?   I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?

[Tom_Doak]

Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links?   I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?

Yes, they changed the numbering this spring.  The course now starts on what used to be #6.  If you're familiar with the old routing, you would now play 6-13, 5, 1-4, and 14-18.


I'm not sure of all the factors that went into the change, but a big one was that the original starting sequence were some of the hardest holes on the course, as well as the most dramatic.

[Bill_McBride]

Matt, are you saying there's been a change in the routing at Cabot Links?   I haven't been there since 2013; could it have been changed since then?

Yes, they changed the numbering this spring.  The course now starts on what used to be #6.  If you're familiar with the old routing, you would now play 6-13, 5, 1-4, and 14-18.


I'm not sure of all the factors that went into the change, but a big one was that the original starting sequence were some of the hardest holes on the course, as well as the most dramatic.

That also creates a two loop layout with old #5 as new #9.   Old #2 was a really tough par 5 that early in the round, so I can see the benefit of that change as well.  It would have been nice to have played the hole after more of a warm up.  The solid finish is maintained, a good thing.