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Terry Lavin

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2012, 08:08:58 PM »
Who cares?  I don't care now and won't care then. The LPGA is unwatchable enough, but add a USGA setup and I'm watching tape delay of the Champions Tour event from Des Moines.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 08:12:48 PM by Terry Lavin »
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2012, 11:19:04 PM »
I've played a lot of U.S. Open venues......... and........ Sebonack is different.

No tour caddy or LPGA Pro  is going to arrive on Tuesday and figure those greens out by Thursday.

The greens at Shinnecock, Bethpage, Baltusrol and others are benign in comparison.

Add in the WIND and if Mother Nature doesn't rain on this parade, Sebonack will hand them their lunch, unless the course is shortened and hole locations made easy.

This is a very difficult golf course, which can be made far more difficult under tournament conditions.

How many, commenting to the contrary, have played this course ?

While the fairways are quite generous, with manageable rough, this will be one hell of a challenge.

My guess is that the course will be softened.  If not, the competitors will be humbled, unless Mother Nature intervenes.

P.S.   The cameras will have a field day with the vistas, they're rather stunning.

P.S.S.   Tom Doak,  was there any consideration to making # 10 green a skyline green ?

David Bartman

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2012, 02:08:46 PM »




I would argue that men tour players are better putters because they are the .01% of millions of male junior golfers who' attempted to become good/great at golf past age 13.
Women tour players are the .01% of a MUCH smaller number of girls who had the same goal post age 12.
Look at any club's (or First tee)junior's program=equal boys/girls until about age 12 when culture kicks in.
Many girls gravitate to other things and their participation drops dramatically in sports in my experience.
Ever seen a girl's pickup basketball game?

face it,more boys aspire to be great at sports than girls.
Of course that's changing every year and more and more girls are choosing sports/golf, but it's simple numbers game.
To putt well you have to be the elite of the elite, and the more people trying/working at a sport, the better you have to be to excel/survive.
Of course there are good LPGA putters, there are just more on the PGA Tour because competition is more fierce.
[/quote]


Jeff,

I totally disagree, their are plenty of great putters that don't play at an elite level.  You don't have to have tremendous hand eye coordination to putt well.   You have to be able to read the green well and hit it close to the line and speed that you are intending. 

There was a extensive study done that indicated that men at the middle handicap range putt better than woman.  They make more 4-10 footers, about 4% more , and men three putted less about 4% less.

At the pro level its not close, especially as you get deeper into both tours, and I think that can be attributed to your theory about more male golfers and the cream rising to the top, but why are the best males better than the best females?   Someone compated statistics from men's 2007 open at oakmont to women's 2010 open at oakmont and the top male putted more than a stroke better than the top female.  Only a handful ( I don't recall the actual number) of men that made the cut putted worse than 4 round average for the women.  The women's winning score was 8 shots lower than the men's , so the putting statistics were not skewed due to ball striking. 

I think the top men are better putters because they put more time into putting and short game at an earlier age, as well as having to shoot lower scores to win events, hence make more putts. 

That being said, I think their is something innate in the way men learn and not in women ( in general ) that allows men to read greens better.  Boys generally learn visually and spatially ( reading greens is both ) and girls generally learn best verbally ( not important in reading greens or putting ). 

Another factor I think is important is that boys tend not be as emotional about negative results effecting their next putt, while girls seem to hold on emotionally to the negative putts.   So boys are generally more confident even after misses. 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

BCrosby

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2012, 03:48:28 PM »
Interesting about putting. It's very odd that women are worse putters. For years I had assumed they were better - until I saw the same data that David refers to.

Certainly what makes you a great ball striker does not necessarily make you a great putter. There are too many great ball strikers who are bad putters to think otherwise. Likewise, there are lots of very good putters who rarely break 90. I play regularly with one such guy. If he could putt for me on every green, I would happily let him. 

So if the relationship between athleticism and putting is, at best, unclear, then accounting for the superior putting of men on the basis of their superior athleticism won't get you there.

OTOH, I am not convinced by the explanations that "men work harder", or the men read visual clues better (instuitively, I would think the opposite) or that men are more psychologically resilient (again, instuitively, I'd think the opposite.)

I'd guess that the reason for the superiority of male putting is explainable for reasons similar to why men are better chess players. At least at the highest levels. The differences in chess can't be about athleticism. Women are just as smart as men. Women can think just as strategically as men. (Don't play bridge against my wife.)

I'd guess at the end of the day it's about men being more intensely competitive than women, especially in head-to-head situations. But I don't have tons of confidence in that explanation either. Like everyone else I watched the US women's gymnastics team this week at the Olympics.

Bob

       

Dan Kelly

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2012, 04:29:32 PM »
Here's my guess:

If there were as many young women competing as early and as often at golf as there are young men, and being forced to practice as much as young men are in order to prosper in competition, you would see no discernible putting-performance difference between the sexes.

But that's just a guess, of course.

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2012, 04:40:03 PM »
Here's my guess:

If there were as many young women competing as early and as often at golf as there are young men, and being forced to practice as much as young men are in order to prosper in competition, you would see no discernible putting-performance difference between the sexes.

But that's just a guess, of course.

Dan

I'd call that a wise guess, and I think that was the point Jeff W was trying to make.

There are probably a lot more women close to the Olympic level in gymnastics than men, at least in the US, to draw a different parallel.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Dan Kelly

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2012, 04:49:17 PM »
There are probably a lot more women close to the Olympic level in gymnastics than men, at least in the US, to draw a different parallel.

A different parallel?

No.

An uneven parallel!

--------- As for repeating Jeff W's point: Guilty as charged! I hadn't read his; I started with Bob Crosby's. I hate it when *other* people do that...
« Last Edit: August 03, 2012, 04:51:36 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

George Pazin

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #32 on: August 03, 2012, 05:00:52 PM »
There are probably a lot more women close to the Olympic level in gymnastics than men, at least in the US, to draw a different parallel.

A different parallel?

No.

An uneven parallel!

--------- As for repeating Jeff W's point: Guilty as charged! I hadn't read his; I started with Bob Crosby's. I hate it when *other* people do that...


Fret not, my child, repeat Mackenzie's 13 Rules 5 times and go forth and sin no more...

Well done on uneven, can't believe I missed that.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Bartman

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #33 on: August 03, 2012, 05:21:07 PM »
Here's my guess:

If there were as many young women competing as early and as often at golf as there are young men, and being forced to practice as much as young men are in order to prosper in competition, you would see no discernible putting-performance difference between the sexes.

But that's just a guess, of course.

Dan

I'd call that a wise guess, and I think that was the point Jeff W was trying to make.

There are probably a lot more women close to the Olympic level in gymnastics than men, at least in the US, to draw a different parallel.

First of all its been proven time and time again in various studies that boys have an advantage spatially and girls have an advantage verbally.  So this isn't a guess on my part, I was simply applying the strengths of the different sexes and applying them to putting. 

The best women golfers put in as much time as the men, many of them started at an early age, in fact, most all the Koreans, have been practicing 8 hours a day since they were 6 years old, they never went to school except one day a month to get a passing grade from the teacher ( saw this on 60 minutes I believe).  No junior golfer in the US spends as much time practicing as korean girls.  How can you explain how all these women have put in as much time as men and don't get the results?  One theory is that they are not practicing putting as much as boys, because they don't need to become elite players, ball striking is king in ladies junior and amateur golf. 


How can you explain men middle handicappers putting almost 10% better than their women counterparts?  This has nothing to do with how much time has been spent practicing at the highest levels, its simply middle of the road golfers of both sexes where the men putt significantly better than the women? 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2012, 10:57:54 PM »
I don't think there are many, and maybe any, bad putters on either tour.

The greens at Sebonack are unlike any other Open venue greens that I can recall, including Oakmont.

They are difficult to diabolical.

Add in speed and wind and they can be terrifying.

George Pazin

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2012, 04:33:37 PM »
First of all its been proven time and time again in various studies that boys have an advantage spatially and girls have an advantage verbally.  So this isn't a guess on my part, I was simply applying the strengths of the different sexes and applying them to putting. 

The best women golfers put in as much time as the men, many of them started at an early age, in fact, most all the Koreans, have been practicing 8 hours a day since they were 6 years old, they never went to school except one day a month to get a passing grade from the teacher ( saw this on 60 minutes I believe).  No junior golfer in the US spends as much time practicing as korean girls.  How can you explain how all these women have put in as much time as men and don't get the results?  One theory is that they are not practicing putting as much as boys, because they don't need to become elite players, ball striking is king in ladies junior and amateur golf. 


How can you explain men middle handicappers putting almost 10% better than their women counterparts?  This has nothing to do with how much time has been spent practicing at the highest levels, its simply middle of the road golfers of both sexes where the men putt significantly better than the women? 


You are comparing apples with oranges. The pool is much much smaller, so the creme de la creme is also smaller. Time spent practicing has little to do with the situation as it currently exists.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2012, 09:49:40 PM »
Tom Doak,

Would you agree with the statement that YOU could set up that course so that:

1.  no one breaks par
2.  no one breaks 75
3.  no one breaks 80

Tiger_Bernhardt

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #37 on: August 07, 2012, 01:04:32 AM »
Pat I completely agree with you on your basic feelings about local knowledge and the difficulty of the greens. This is a course that screams Augusta national preparation. One needs many rounds to be ready.

jeffwarne

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #38 on: August 07, 2012, 07:38:19 AM »
First of all its been proven time and time again in various studies that boys have an advantage spatially and girls have an advantage verbally.  So this isn't a guess on my part, I was simply applying the strengths of the different sexes and applying them to putting. 

The best women golfers put in as much time as the men, many of them started at an early age, in fact, most all the Koreans, have been practicing 8 hours a day since they were 6 years old, they never went to school except one day a month to get a passing grade from the teacher ( saw this on 60 minutes I believe).  No junior golfer in the US spends as much time practicing as korean girls.  How can you explain how all these women have put in as much time as men and don't get the results?  One theory is that they are not practicing putting as much as boys, because they don't need to become elite players, ball striking is king in ladies junior and amateur golf. 


How can you explain men middle handicappers putting almost 10% better than their women counterparts?  This has nothing to do with how much time has been spent practicing at the highest levels, its simply middle of the road golfers of both sexes where the men putt significantly better than the women? 


You are comparing apples with oranges. The pool is much much smaller, so the creme de la creme is also smaller. Time spent practicing has little to do with the situation as it currently exists.

Bingo
100 Korean girls can putt til the cows come home.
A larger # of great putters will emerge from 5 million boys competing against each other.(and because putting is so important, they will prosper and be seen on TV as great putters)

If 10 million  girls competed against each other, then a larger # of great women putters would emerge.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

David Bartman

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #39 on: August 07, 2012, 01:42:13 PM »
I love how all of you avoid talking about the middle handicappers, they are at the same skill level, and the men putt almost 10% better, please explain that? 
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Anthony Butler

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #40 on: August 07, 2012, 02:28:14 PM »
Maybe I should go and caddie there for the week of the tournament, if I could get a good enough player to work for.  That would be fun, and we would find out for sure just how much difference "local knowledge" would make.

The Golf Channel could make a 6 part show out of that, Tom. If you could get Jack Nicklaus to carry another competitors bag, it would pull more viewers than the Big Break Atlantis and Feherty combined.
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