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Patrick_Mucci

The golfer who gets there early, gets to play and practice more than anyone else, who gets a great local caddy.

This is NOT a golf course where you can just show up and shoot lights out under tournament conditions.

If Mother Nature cooperates and the course plays firm and fast, I can see those greens playing havoc with the best women golfers in the world, and, there's no way that course can be played long with challenging hole locations and NOT embarrass the better players, especially if the wind is up.

With F&F, that's a very, very, very difficult course toward the back tees.

How considerate will the USGA be ?

Remember, this is a televised event on the National, if not the World stage.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2012, 12:39:40 AM »
I cannot imagine most LPGA players even considering taking a local caddie for a major championship, although there are a couple of caddies at Sebonack who would do a hell of a lot better in steering them around the course.

Maybe I should go and caddie there for the week of the tournament, if I could get a good enough player to work for.  That would be fun, and we would find out for sure just how much difference "local knowledge" would make.

Dan King

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2012, 01:24:48 AM »
Tom Doak writes:
Maybe I should go and caddie there for the week of the tournament, if I could get a good enough player to work for.  That would be fun, and we would find out for sure just how much difference "local knowledge" would make.

Tom, that sounds like just the thing that might interest Annika Sorenstam for a mini comeback. She'd get a chance to talk to you about design and you could help her around Sebonak.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
You see Nancy Lopez and Betsy King and Pat Bradley, and think you have to be a Superwoman [to win]. Then boom! You're there.
 --Annika Sorenstam (on her success in 1995, leading both the European and U.S. LPGA at the end of the year)

Mark Chaplin

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 10:19:08 AM »
How many players male or female took local caddies for TOC Opens? And that's the ultimate knowledge course.
Cave Nil Vino

Keith OHalloran

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 10:23:57 AM »
Lynn Strickler is up there. He would be a good place to start for any pro.

Brian Colbert

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 10:51:26 AM »
Pat,

I think you bring up an interesting point. When I play competitive golf with a caddie, I am very reluctant to use a club caddie for a number of reasons. What I think you're underestimating here is the ability of these tour caddies to know the game of their player. Particularly when a player and caddie have had a professional relationship which has lasted a year or even more, there is an inherent level of trust on the part of the player that the caddie may know their game better than they do themselves, and an inherent level of trust on the part of the caddie that the player will not overreact to a major mistake on their part. It also depends on the type of caddie the player prefers. In my experience I find that club caddies tend to be "yes men" who are more inclined to let the player make his or her own mistakes rather than call them off, risking the chance that they could be wrong.

I'd like to bring up something that happened to me in the recent Philadelphia Open at Pine Valley. I should preface this by saying I had a legendary PV caddie who was on the money all day to this point. To avoid anyone going in the Devil's Asshole bunker, the GAP placed the pin on the 10th green all the way back, on top of that flat spot. I hit 8-iron in the morning from about 160 yards with a subtle tailwind. The ball traveled much further than I expected, pin high on the left edge of the green. We get to the 10th hole again in the afternoon and the wind felt to me like it was a little stronger. I said "let's hit the 9" and he said that the wind had changed and it was probably still an 8. Well, I hit 8-iron and it was so far over that it hit the tree over the green about halfway up on the fly. I think I could have gotten a PW all the way back. I ended up making double bogey and that was when I was really out of the tournament, moving to 7-over par on the day.The point of the story is not to say how terrible my caddie was at PV that day. In fact, he was great. It was my responsibility as a player to know my own game and trust myself to make the final call over him and hit the 9. The point is that if I had been able to have a friend who knew my game more than he knew the course, he likely would have been okay with the 9 over the 8.

What was worse about that incident than the double bogey was that even though he had been right all day prior to that, my ability to trust him went completely out the window. I was not mad at my caddie for telling me to hit an 8 instead of a 9 because it was ultimately my decision. But it certainly made it difficult on the next hole when he said "I think it's a 6-iron" from a yardage which I would usually hit 7 to actually believe him. Every shot I played the rest of the day was played with a question mark in my mind as I was standing over the ball. LPGA and PGA players trust their caddies inherently because they have been conditioned to through months and even years of a continued relationship. I think that is something you can't overlook when you claim that the player who "takes a Sebonack caddie" will win the championship. These ladies will likely be able to play Sebonack as many times as they want as soon as they qualify for the championship, and I'm sure most if not all of them will take club caddies when they do so. These ladies will have extensive local knowledge by the time they are ready to tee it up for a major on Thursday.

Peter Pallotta

Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 11:25:17 AM »
Brian - thanks much for that glimpse/insights into a top player's experience. Very interesting.

Patrick - assuming F&F conditions, where do you think the greater challenge will lie: in getting to the right spots on the fairways for the best angles of approach to the greens/pins, or on the greens themselves?

(As I type those words, I realize that I might ask the same question about Augusta National of all places)

Peter

Matthew Petersen

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 11:30:52 AM »
Furthermore, it's my impression that many of the top women players rely on their caddies in a way male players rarely do. It's not at all uncommon to see their caddies helping to line them up, take the lead in reading putts, etc. That must require a very great deal of familiarity, and a player who is used to that will lose more by going with a local caddie than she would likely gain through increased local knowledge.

Garland Bayley

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 12:30:40 PM »
How many players male or female took local caddies for TOC Opens? And that's the ultimate knowledge course.

I know Michelle Wie took a local caddy for at least one practice round. In an interview she said she couldn't believe where the guy was telling her to hit it, often blind.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 01:29:57 PM »
completely disagree.

these are touring professionals.  To some extent their job is to figure out courses quickly, and the better ones do that very well.

Most local caddies never see tour caliber golf.  They have no idea what a tour player is trying to/can do with a golf ball.  They might be able to give a 4 handicapper or even a good club pro a hand, but tour pros are plus 3 players, and are typically much longer than the few plus three club players a caddie will see.  The local caddie will be telling the tour player to chip out from lies where tour players can make birdie.

There are VERY few tour caliber women players who are not playing on tour.

Lastly, the way the golf course will be set up for the tournament will be TOTALLY DIFFERENT than it is set up for the members.  Yup, the club might keep the greens toonamint fast, but the combination of high rough, tight fairways, and most importantly very firm greens and fairways ("peaked"), is something that cannot be replicated for extended stretches.  Tour players go from peaked course to peaked course, and even THEY dont see a US Open course but once per year.


The winner will have played Sebonack before Monday of tournament week, but the "local knowledge" argument is wrong. 

Dan Kelly

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 01:38:25 PM »
To avoid anyone going in the Devil's Asshole bunker...

Brian --

I second Peter Pallotta in thanking you for this account.

One question, about the quoted line above: Why was that one of their goals?

Dan
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Doug Sobieski

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 01:42:01 PM »
There is no way a local caddie is on the bag of the winner, and I'm willing to have a friendly wager for actual money in support of my position.

Patrick, if you said the winner was going to be from S. Korea, I'd tend to agree with you.   ;D

Dean Stokes

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 01:52:07 PM »
Wasn't it Vijay who won a PGA Tour event with his fitness guru on the bag? So why couldn't a tour player win an event with a club caddie (who could possibly be a scratch golfer and maybe an ex mini tour player), who has seen the Sebonac greens at every speed, in every condition and has read every putt on the course at some time or another? Just wondering.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 02:03:44 PM »

Sure its possible a tour player could win with a club caddie.  My point though is that "local knowledge" is far less (i.e. not at all) important than knowledge of a players game and knowledge of how the course will be set up for the event. 

One other argument i'd make is that the holes will be set in areas rarely seen during member play, and NEVER seen in 18 holes on the same day.  Take the men's open--EVERY hole is three paces from the edge or a hill, except on the 500 yard par 4s (which are 5 pars for the members) where the holes are maybe 4 or 5 paces away.  I have been at championships where i have been told by the locals that the supt/owner would not ALLOW holes to be set where they were, for fear that the players would never finish.  The USGA will go find 18 of these in a row.  The tour caddies will find these locations without help on Tuesday.  The locals will have no idea where they are, might have seen 3 putts rolled to some them lifetime, and a few they will simply have never seen.

Dean Stokes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 02:13:28 PM »
I tend to disagree Scott. I believe the tour players are so good that 99% of them could win with anyone on their bag. I caddied for a young tour player years ago in The Open qualifier...never met him until the morning of the round and spoke a different language! All I knew was the golf course we were playing. He shot 65 and won the qualifier. We then went to the final qualifier on a course I knew and he qualified for and played in The Open at Lytham. I gave him a yardage, pointed where to hit it and helped read putts. He didn't need a 'tour' caddie who knew his game. Players these days take wives and friends from college to loop in tournaments for them. I firmly believe that some of the really good club caddies at Sebonac could only benefit a player in the event.
Living The Dream in The Palm Beaches....golfing, yoga-ing, horsing around and working damn it!!!!!!!

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 02:15:51 PM »

Lastly, the way the golf course will be set up for the tournament will be TOTALLY DIFFERENT than it is set up for the members.  Yup, the club might keep the greens toonamint fast, but the combination of high rough, tight fairways, and most importantly very firm greens and fairways ("peaked"), is something that cannot be replicated for extended stretches.  Tour players go from peaked course to peaked course, and even THEY dont see a US Open course but once per year. 

Scott:

I agree with most of what you said above, but not with this part.  My understanding is that the USGA is not going to narrow up the holes for the Women's Open ... and there is no rough to speak of, it's either fairway or sandy native areas at Sebonack.  And it's usually pretty firm and fast with bullet greens for the members, too, unless it's been raining or it's early in the spring before the members are out there.

You are right that the hole locations will be tucked, but not much more than for member play.  There aren't an unlimited number of hole locations on those greens when they're fast, so I would guess they aren't going to use many hole locations that I didn't foresee ... they will just be putting the holes a pace or two closer to the edge than Garret does on the average day, and they won't be using the "middle" hole locations very much, as you say.

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 03:03:35 PM »
Tom-  i did think as i posted my last...Sebonack could be one where they really dont have to do much.  I've always felt that, if i could have fun playing a course set up as you describe (from two sets of tees forward) then i've found a really good course.

David Bartman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 03:12:11 PM »
I tend to disagree Scott. I believe the tour players are so good that 99% of them could win with anyone on their bag. I caddied for a young tour player years ago in The Open qualifier...never met him until the morning of the round and spoke a different language! All I knew was the golf course we were playing. He shot 65 and won the qualifier. We then went to the final qualifier on a course I knew and he qualified for and played in The Open at Lytham. I gave him a yardage, pointed where to hit it and helped read putts. He didn't need a 'tour' caddie who knew his game. Players these days take wives and friends from college to loop in tournaments for them. I firmly believe that some of the really good club caddies at Sebonac could only benefit a player in the event.

Dean,

There is a huge difference between men and women tour players and their ability to understand a new golf course quickly as well as having all the required shots to play said new golf course in the most advantageous way.   
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Brian Colbert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2012, 04:27:21 PM »
To avoid anyone going in the Devil's Asshole bunker...

Brian --

I second Peter Pallotta in thanking you for this account.

One question, about the quoted line above: Why was that one of their goals?

Dan

Dan,

The tournament was contested in a stroke play format and based on the words with officials I spoke with they had no desire to ruin a player's stroke play round because they went in one bunker on the course. Though Chris Roselle probably knows better than I, I believe they succeeded in this goal. While the devil's asshole is certainly a fun match play type feature which almost ensures loss of hole, the concept of being in a hazard which is so penal that even the top player will struggle to get out was too much. The only option for those who could not hit it out would be to take an unplayable lie and go back to the tee and replay. That option goes out the window as soon as the player attempts to make a stroke out of the bunker, because if they were now going to replay the shot it would be from the bunker! Basically they didin't want to have a situation which a player simply could not get out of the bunker and had no choice but to withdraw from the event.

Chris_Hufnagel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2012, 04:31:37 PM »
There is a huge difference between men and women tour players and their ability to understand a new golf course quickly as well as having all the required shots to play said new golf course in the most advantageous way.    

David, no argument on physical ability...but I am interested to why you think men tour player's have a better cognitive ability to understand a course more quickly than women tour player's?

David Bartman

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2012, 04:48:47 PM »
Chris,

I have no idea, I think it is the same reason why men are better at math and women are better at languages.  I also think that its the same reason that men are better than women at putting which obviously takes a minimal amount of brawn to be successful.   There are obviously exceptions to the rule.  I have seen the best women in the world , up close, and they don't seem to pick up the little things that that the men do during practice rounds.  It may just be because they don't know what to look for because no one ever showed them, or in my experience, they are more concerned with their mechanics and their game , then gaining course knowledge during practice rounds.   
Still need to play Pine Valley!!

Steve Salmen

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #21 on: August 02, 2012, 06:27:12 PM »
I think the winner will have three very short names.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #22 on: August 02, 2012, 06:47:01 PM »
Pat has no idea who the winner will be.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Chris Roselle

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2012, 07:12:57 PM »

[/quote]

Dan,

The tournament was contested in a stroke play format and based on the words with officials I spoke with they had no desire to ruin a player's stroke play round because they went in one bunker on the course. Though Chris Roselle probably knows better than I, I believe they succeeded in this goal. While the devil's asshole is certainly a fun match play type feature which almost ensures loss of hole, the concept of being in a hazard which is so penal that even the top player will struggle to get out was too much. The only option for those who could not hit it out would be to take an unplayable lie and go back to the tee and replay. That option goes out the window as soon as the player attempts to make a stroke out of the bunker, because if they were now going to replay the shot it would be from the bunker! Basically they didin't want to have a situation which a player simply could not get out of the bunker and had no choice but to withdraw from the event.
[/quote]

Ding, ding, ding...you are correct sir!!!

jeffwarne

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Re: I think I know who's going to win the 2013 Women's Open at Sebonack.
« Reply #24 on: August 02, 2012, 07:50:43 PM »
Chris,

I have no idea, I think it is the same reason why men are better at math and women are better at languages.  I also think that its the same reason that men are better than women at putting which obviously takes a minimal amount of brawn to be successful.   There are obviously exceptions to the rule.  I have seen the best women in the world , up close, and they don't seem to pick up the little things that that the men do during practice rounds.  It may just be because they don't know what to look for because no one ever showed them, or in my experience, they are more concerned with their mechanics and their game , then gaining course knowledge during practice rounds.    

I would argue that men tour players are better putters because they are the .01% of millions of male junior golfers who' attempted to become good/great at golf past age 13.
Women tour players are the .01% of a MUCH smaller number of girls who had the same goal post age 12.
Look at any club's (or First tee)junior's program=equal boys/girls until about age 12 when culture kicks in.
Many girls gravitate to other things and their participation drops dramatically in sports in my experience.
Ever seen a girl's pickup basketball game?

face it,more boys aspire to be great at sports than girls.
Of course that's changing every year and more and more girls are choosing sports/golf, but it's simple numbers game.
To putt well you have to be the elite of the elite, and the more people trying/working at a sport, the better you have to be to excel/survive.
Of course there are good LPGA putters, there are just more on the PGA Tour because competition is more fierce.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 07:54:35 PM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey