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Ben Sims

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The definitions of fun and hard
« on: July 26, 2012, 12:20:27 PM »
The threads floating around got me to thinking earlier, what is fun?  What is hard?  What is good?  Here are the definitions I came up with that merit some discussion.

A fun course is one where the shot differential of low handicap golfers is positive.  This means that they are shooting worse than they normally shoot.  However, the shot differential of high handicap golfers is negative.  This means that score-wise, they are playing better than they normally do.  Some would also call this a "good match play course."

A hard course is one where the low handicap golfers score pretty closely to what they normally score, but the high handicap golfers struggle to shoot in their normal range.  This would also be called a "good stroke play course" or a tournament course.

My experience is that low handicap golfers tend to overlook the former as tricked up and goofy and complain mightily that their normal game doesn't equal good scores.  The high handicaps bemoan the latter by saying it is penal and uninspired and the architecture is poor.  

Discuss.
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John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2012, 12:29:08 PM »
As long as there are fat guys who sit alone at home because they chase the wrong girls there will be fun golf courses people think are unfair.  Every golf course is hard and every course is fun.  How else could you explain Pete Dye making a living in this business?
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2012, 12:30:06 PM »
Ben,

Your definitions are invalid
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Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2012, 12:34:57 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 26, 2012, 12:30:06 PM
Ben,

Your definitions are invalid


I'll take the bait.
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Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2012, 12:57:48 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 26, 2012, 12:30:06 PM
Ben,

Your definitions are invalid


Oh, please don't give us your definitions.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2012, 01:51:27 PM »
Attempting to define fun and hard by scoring patterns is putting the cart before the horse.  It's also misguided, not least because there are fun hard courses, where high handicappers may not score well.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2012, 01:56:40 PM »
Quote from: Patrick_Mucci on July 26, 2012, 12:30:06 PM
Ben,

Your definitions are invalid


My goodness Patrick I must tell you that I pray to the good lord you are joking at times, if not...
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JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2012, 02:07:46 PM »
Ben:

I'm not so sure you are correct.  Low handicappers think a course is fun because it likely doesn't challenge the full compliment of their game....but they still enjoy playing it.  Scoring doesn't come into play - in fact - I usually score quite well on "fun" courses.

Hard courses are just hard....aptly termed because it likely challenges the low handicapper to play a variety of shots with a variety of clubs....with the results for poor execution being quite penal and costly to a desired score around par.

That's my perspective at least.

Ryan
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Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2012, 02:30:17 PM »
A fun course is one that I enjoy(ed) playing and look forward to playing again.  A hard course can still be a fun course.  I'm not sure why the two need to be mutually exclusive.  I'd say that if a course is hard and not fun, it's probably not a good golf course.
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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2012, 02:51:31 PM »
In my experience...

Fun golf courses have a lot of half shot penalties.

Hard golf courses have a lot of full shot penalties.
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Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2012, 03:59:03 PM »
I'll actually second the thrust of Pat's post, but add mine.....

A "Fun" course is one that when you've reached the 18th green, you are jonesing to walk over to the first tee and put the peg in the ground and do it all over again.

A "Hard" course is one you immediately look for the nearest bar upon departing the departing the 18th green and have ZERO interest in teeing it up all over again that day!

 ;D
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2012, 04:14:51 PM »
I think a good course is one that has elements of BOTH good and hard. Royal County Down is the first course that comes to mind.It is unquestionably hard, but also fun, as long as you approach it with the proper sense of humor.

Borrowing from Ronald Montesano's post on the other thread,  I also think there are many courses that are hard from the back tees and an absolute blast from the forward tees. I just had 12 guys out to Saucon Valley and we played all three courses. Handicaps ranged from 1 to 20 with six guys 6 handicaps or less. We played the Old Course from the Whites at 6300 yards (nor the Blues at 6800 or the Blacks at 7100.) Every guy loved it no one felt that they missed out on anything by moving up.

The next day I sent 8 guys off the Whites (6400 yards) and the 4 best off the Blues (7050 yards,there are no black tee.) The guys playing the Whites LOVED it and the other 4 came in beat up, with scores from 81 to 84. They would have played it again, but I guarantee they would move up to the Whites and had FUN.

We did play the Grace Course that aftenoon, and everyone happily moved up to the forward tees (6300 yards) and no one asked for more.
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Mark Johnson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2012, 09:07:48 PM »
from my experiences


Fun courses which aren't hard
Tobacco Road
Golf Club of Illinois
Willow Hill
Giants Ridge -- Quarrey


Hard Courses which aren't fun
Kiaweh
Honors Course
Hazeltine
Ross -- French Lick


Hard And Fun courses

Purgatory
Prince Course
Butler
Bandon Trails
Merion
Medinah 3
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John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2012, 10:31:56 PM »
Honors and kiawah are a lot more fun to me than medinah 3.  Honors is not hard from the right tees. 

Medinah is high rough and too many trees and not interesting.  The definition of tactical golf in my book.

Ocean is really fun i and requires a ton of short game. 
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Peter Pallotta

Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2012, 10:49:56 PM »
If I use different words, I find it easier to think in terms of opposites, i.e. playful vs serious, ebullient vs dour, ephemeral vs dogmatic, surprising vs repetitive. If I use Ben's words, I find myself thinking that the opposite of "fun" is not "hard", but "dull".

Peter     
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2012, 08:07:44 AM »
Mark Johnson,

I would love you to flesh out the examples, since I have played most of the courses on the list and generally agree.  What is your handicap and how do you get there? (i.e. accuracy, length, finesse in putting/chipping?)  Obviously, I am most interested in your take on the Quarry!

A friend defines the difference between fun and hard as:

Fun = a course where you shoot close to your normal score, or exceed it slightly
Hard = a course where you exceed your normal score, sometimes by a lot!
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2012, 09:13:10 AM »
With the exception of courses that one plays often, I wouldn't measure "fun" or "hard" using score (or score relative to normal scores or relative to handicap) as a component. You can have a bad day where you can't get off the tee, are not striking the ball well or can't get in synch on the greens and end up with an awful score that has no relationship to the course. I travel a lot and there are many courses I've played only once or twice. There are a lot of fun courses that I shouldn't have thought were fun If my score was part of the measure.
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Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2012, 09:20:14 AM »
Stewart,  I think you are an exception!

One of the funnier lines I ever heard was on the first tee at a famous course.  Watching the group in front tee off, one guy whiffs, and turns around and says, "They were right....this is a hard course."
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Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2012, 09:25:04 AM »
Quote from: Jeff_Brauer on July 27, 2012, 09:20:14 AM
Stewart,  I think you are an exception!

One of the funnier lines I ever heard was on the first tee at a famous course.  Watching the group in front tee off, one guy whiffs, and turns around and says, "They were right....this is a hard course."
Not at all.  I'm not alone amongst the blokes I play with in frequently enjoying courses where I don't score well.  One of the most fun rounds of golf in my life was at Carnoustie*, in driving rain for 18 holes.  I didn't break 100 but loved it.

*  I'm well aware that I may be unusual in having fun at Carnoustie.
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In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Steve Lapper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2012, 09:26:13 AM »
Quote from: Stewart Abramson on July 27, 2012, 09:13:10 AM
With the exception of courses that one plays often, I wouldn't measure "fun" or "hard" using score (or score relative to normal scores or relative to handicap) as a component. You can have a bad day where you can't get off the tee, are not striking the ball well or can't get in synch on the greens and end up with an awful score that has no relationship to the course. I travel a lot and there are many courses I've played only once or twice. There are a lot of fun courses that I shouldn't have thought were fun If my score was part of the measure.

 I wholeheartedly agree! For example, I've a knack of scoring particularly well at Winged Foot West and Bethpage Black....both very "hard" courses in most people's opinions, yet for some unknown and hellbent reason, I rarely score well at the likes of NGLA or Hidden Creek, both much more "fun" courses than "hard."

Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy them all, but my historic scoring between hard and fun remains a distinctively quantitative rebuttal to those who insert relative scoring into the evaluation.
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The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2012, 12:46:54 PM »
I think one can split the definition of difficult or challenging into two points of view.

A challenging course should require three very good shots to make a birdie.  One poorly executed shot should take away the chance for birdie, and put bogie or worse into play.  It can be possible to salvage par with a very good recovery shot however.  You might call it "difficult to score on."

The more modern view seems to propose that any poorly executed shot must be punished with a double bogey or worse.  And the modern view seems to hold that any course that would allow a recovery from a bad shot must be "easy."   This course is "difficult to avoid big numbers on"

Depending on your point of view, both styles offer difficulty.  The first style can be fun to play, the second, not so much, especially if you are not an expert golfer.





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Carl Rogers

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2012, 01:05:50 PM »
Quote from: Mark Johnson on July 26, 2012, 09:07:48 PM
from my experiences


Fun courses which aren't hard
Tobacco Road
Golf Club of Illinois
Willow Hill
Giants Ridge -- Quarrey

TR is fun to look at the Architecture as long as you play from the correct tees and AVOID the Architecture, otherwise it is hard, IMO.
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2012, 01:20:11 PM »
For me this is one of those "I know it when I see (play) it" things.

Hard & NOT Fun: Firestone South - Querencia

Hard & Fun: Kiawah Ocean - Diamante with 20 MPH wind - CDS Ocean


« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 01:22:03 PM by Greg Tallman »
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Morgan Clawson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2012, 01:59:19 PM »
A few descriptors:

Fairways
Fun = wide, undulating, preferred positions for the precision player, fast and firm
Hard = narrow, tree lined, long, soft

Greens
Fun = undulating, different from hole to hole, receives air or ground approaches, different pin positions
Hard = very fast, built to accept approaches of either air or ground but not both, small

Tees
Fun = various angles, various lengths, free-flowing ala Ballyneal, shorter carries
Hard = point you at trouble and not the fairway, close to ob, long carries

Rough
Fun = easy to find the ball, not overly deep, able to hit recovery shots back to the fairway
Hard = deep, thick, lots of trees particularly pines

Hazards
Fun = in clear view, manageable for lesser players, sand
Hard = numerous, several on the same hole, requires a long carry, positioned close to greens and common landing areas, water

Trees
Fun = less
Hard = more

Length
Fun = lots of hole length variety for 3s/4s/5s
Hard = most holes are very long, 6400+ yards
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Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: The definitions of fun and hard
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2012, 04:18:10 PM »
A fun course is where the mental part of the game is more important than the physical, and for a hard course, the reverse is true.
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