Ground Game: A must for any great course?

[Tom_Doak]

Gene:

Funny how you are fine drawing out the negative side of Brian's thoughts on Ballyneal, but can't accept even the minor criticism of Sand Hills.  It's been 108 degrees in the region a lot this summer, so dismissing Brian's comments on those grounds is willfully blind.

[Gene Greco]

There is stuff I'm not enamoured with at BN (Ballyneal) too but I doubt I will ever share it on here.

                                                              Why not?

Sheehy-I`m with the Doc. What happened to frank commentary my boy?

Dr Gene, Tim: I'm getting thin skinned. I don't like getting attacked and there is too much tribalism on this site as it is. Has Kalina been booted from the site yet? OK: Ballyneal does lack the setting of Sand Hills we all know it. That will be a big deal for many and it is for me when not thinking about purely what is on the ground. And although my describing BN's maintenance meld in positive terms and lauding the manicured setup of SH seems contradictory, well it isn't in my mind. I don't know if it's a function of the design of the greens or because it's all fescue in a climate that can get quite hot, but the greens when I played BN were slow to the point of being unenjoyable for me - now I am not talking UK slow v US, I am talking SLOW! It did impact on what is otherwise an exhilirating course. So, setting and slow greens - I'll still pick BN but SH is impressive enough for me to doubt my own judgement on this matter and to understand when folk take the stance that it is as good as it gets.

A nod to Dismal in all of these confrontational comparisons if I may: I honestly do not have a clue how this course can't even break the top 200 modern (let alone 100) on the GW list. What I saw when I played was great hole after great hole. The front 9 at Dismal was my favourite 9 holes of golf out of the 54 I played in the region and the setting tops them all by a distance. When the Doak course is completed I am sure it will get all the play, but if either of those 9s tops the Nicklaus front 9 for ME I will be over the moon. Not because TD doesn't create top golf courses but because the fun factor in those 9 holes of golf is unlike anything I have seen to date. Honestly. It would be disingenuous of me not to point out that the cartball nature of Dismal Nicklaus is a negative in my mind - but because I was never expecting to walk it didn't bother me as much. The sound of petrol carts and cart paths everywhere on both courses is a negative relative to BallyNeal. I still think at Dismal that if one day it has a bank of expendable cash, a series of Addington style bridges could (a) add a distinctive differentiating element to the personality of the course and (b) a means of making the Nicklaus course genuinely walkable.


In general, i don't know why folk get so offended when luke warm comments are made on their course, even when most folk do caveat said comments by saying they are all fine courses - but having been to Holyoke and Mullen, I understand that making these places a viable business proposition is a very tough ask regardless of the quality of the course, so emotions run a lot higher. I hope they all thrive in the long run as they are all truly great places.

[David Davis]

Gentlemen,

Unfortunately I've not played Ballyneal or Sand Hills yet. However, your enthusiasm for these courses makes them a must on my list. I will say that I don't believe I've ever been in temperature above 104 degrees and while I'm certainly a walker, in that temperature I just can't imagine playing golf or doing anything besides hiding in an air-conditioned room or a shaded pool full of ice. Not an experience high up on my list of to do's no more so than repeating the wettest/windiest day I've ever golfed in Ireland. Took off my shoes after the first hole to empty them of water. Extreme conditions aside I can't wait to play both and then come back and read this discussion. However, should I play in those extreme temperatures I too would wear pants, in fact I always do while golfing.

I do understand being passionate about your course, I am about mine as well. However there will always be people that see it differently or prefer one style to another sometimes there comments will be justified and sometimes they won't, c'est la vie.

Clearly according to the experts and most GCA opinions ground game is not a must for a great course! I believe that's been proven in this thread!

[Mac Plumart]

i don't know why folk get so offended when luke warm comments are made on their course

This is the issue with "frank and honest commentary".

Kudos for your giving your honest opinions and assessments, Brian.

[Chris Johnston]

Brian - a bit about gas carts.  Both we and Sand Hills use them as electric carts don't hold a charge for the all day nature of use here.  Recall, you use a cart to get around both the course and the property.  Dismal tried electric (and electric with solar) and several guests ran out of battery on the course.  The other issue is where to charge them, since you use the cart to get to the clubhouse and back to cabins.  I agree gas is noisy but, after many trials, it works best.  We are hopeful that battery life will further develop so we can go to electric in the future.

wrt to the Sand Hills/Ballyneal/Dismal River discussion...ALL of the courses are outstanding and each is a bit different.  Nothing at all wrong with having a preference and I appreciate the commentary.  I love Sand Hills, really enjoyed Ballyneal (the only time I played it), and agree with you wrt Dismal River.  All are fun to play, have great people, are a treat to visit and be a member.  I can't imagine enjoying walking anything at 100+ degrees - I'd bet you find Sand Hills more enjoyable to walk if you play with a member and it isn't so blasted hot.  It also probably takes several rounds to get a course.

[Gene Greco]

Tom:

     The walking issue at Sand Hills has been discussed on here ad nauseum. Many think the walk is no big deal while some do.

My point was to make it perfectly clear to those reading what the conditions were at the time Brian first played SH and quit walking after 8 holes.

He also stated he FIRST played and walked 36 at BN prior to driving the three hours to SH. He doesn't state whether or not he had the services of a caddie to aid him at BN. As you point out, the temps were high the day before while he was at BN, but it wasn't 108 degrees F.

Maybe he was fatigued?

Maybe his scorched legs couldn't handle the constant rubbing against the moon suit while he walked?

Again, my point was to put things in their proper context so others may draw their own conclusions.

[Wade Whitehead]

Augusta doesn't seem to present much of a ground game.

WW

[Ben Sims]

Augusta doesn't seem to present much of a ground game.

WW

I would disagree.  I think I would--depending on pin position--prefer to run the ball up on 5, 8, 11, 17.  I can see where it is possible on 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 18.  It's not as one-dimensional as you might think.

[Wade Whitehead]

Ben:

With the exception of players trying to reach the eighth hole in two, I never see the ground game in use at The Masters.  A player may aim an approach a few yards from some hole positions but the game in demand appears to be played nearly entirely through the air.

WW

[Ben Sims]

Ben:

With the exception of players trying to reach the eighth hole in two, I never see the ground game in use at The Masters.  A player may aim an approach a few yards from some hole positions but the game in demand appears to be played nearly entirely through the air.

WW

The pros don't use the ground game anywhere.  I don't say that to be snarky at all.  It's just that they hit the ball so high, with so much spin.  I find it very difficult to judge architecture based on how the top 0.01% play the game.

[Peter Pallotta]

That's right - we tend to have too lofty/exact a notion of the "ground game". For me (average golfer) the chance/opportunity to bump and run something up from 50 yards or so (instead of trying a half-wedge shot that I never practice) IS the ground game option, as is the chance/opportunity to hit a soft/low 4 iron instead of a hard/high 5, knowing that there is at least a chance to come up short and roll on up and on.  In that sense, Augusta seems to offer quite a bit of the "ground game" for a golfer like me.

Peter

[Wade Whitehead]

Ben:

Point well taken.  I tend to make judgements about courses based on shots good players, not just professionals, hit.  It's not fair to make broad statements based on a Masters field and I didn't intend to do so.

I also tend to evaluate ground game based on whether it is the preferred play (and not just on whether or not it is an option).  My second-hand knowledge of ANGC tends to suggest that playing through the air always beats playing on the ground, even for players of lesser skill.

There are a number of holes at Augusta that don't seem to permit any run-up shot (2, 7, 12, 13, 15, 16) and a couple that I didn't list seem to be pretty severely uphill on the approach.

I'm certainly not arguing against Augusta's status as a great golf course.  I am suggesting that it may be as great as it is without the presence of a significant ground game.

WW

[Eric Smith]

Ben says:

The pros don't use the ground game anywhere.  I don't say that to be snarky at all.  It's just that they hit the ball so high, with so much spin.  I find it very difficult to judge architecture based on how the top 0.01% play the game.

An excellent post and one to think about when we begin to assess ground game options at our favorite courses. I recently played a round at The Honors with the superintendent there, David Stone. It was a lesson in ground game options on a golf course. He may max out at 175 yards but man oh man does he know how to get his ball close to the hole and it wasn't with a lob wedge!

[Jim Colton]

Tom:

     The walking issue at Sand Hills has been discussed on here ad nauseum. Many think the walk is no big deal while some do.

My point was to make it perfectly clear to those reading what the conditions were at the time Brian first played SH and quit walking after 8 holes.

He also stated he FIRST played and walked 36 at BN prior to driving the three hours to SH. He doesn't state whether or not he had the services of a caddie to aid him at BN. As you point out, the temps were high the day before while he was at BN, but it wasn't 108 degrees F.

Maybe he was fatigued?

Maybe his scorched legs couldn't handle the constant rubbing against the moon suit while he walked?

Again, my point was to put things in their proper context so others may draw their own conclusions.

Gene, you're right, it was only 107 at Ballyneal the day before. I played through Brian's group three times that day (they picked the absolute worst day to play Ballyneal - imagine being the only foursome on the course with a bunch of charity-driven speed demons. I am actually surprised that didn't leave a slightly bad taste in his mouth). I was in too much of a hurry to notice or care to notice whether he was wearing shorts that day.

There was a dense fog the morning Brian played Ballyneal. I'm not surprised that the greens were slow in the morning. They were definitely crispy and all one can handle in the afternoon after the wind picked up.

As far as Ballyneal's greens, I'm sure a significant portion of golfers would view them as a negative. Just as I'm sure many appreciate their variety, challenge, short-game options and (gulp) fun. I happen to like my lag putting being tested. In my experience, many golfers simply don't like three putting. More than once or twice a round and the greens must be tricked up. Of course, no one says anything about being in the wrong spot in the first place.

[Jared Kalina]

Gene-

Don't get frustrated with Sheehy about the walking aspect.  If only he had expected to ride Sand Hills like he did Dismal River he wouldn't be so let down.  

[Mac Plumart]

Of course, no one says anything about being in the wrong spot in the first place.

BOOM!  This is a crucial element to really great greens, in my opinion.  They affect play all the way back to the tee, as you need to adjust your strategy depending on where the pin is that day in an effort to have the appropriate angle on your approach shot.  Ballyneal is amazing in this regard, as is Pinehurst #2...and well, I guess many other great courses...and many other great courses with ground game options.  

[Don_Mahaffey]

Gene-

Don't get frustrated with Sheehy about the walking aspect.  If only he had EXPECTED to ride Sand Hills like he did Dismal River he wouldn't be so let down.  

Sorry Brian, not booted yet.  

Jared, Brian Sheehy is  nice man who traveled half way around the world to visit the Sand Hills. He didn't write anything that hasn't been written before and he was highly complimentary about your course and club. You sure you want to keep going down this road?  

[Phil McDade]

Gene-

Don't get frustrated with Sheehy about the walking aspect.  If only he had EXPECTED to ride Sand Hills like he did Dismal River he wouldn't be so let down.  

Sorry Brian, not booted yet.  

Jared, Brian Sheehy is  nice man who traveled half way around the world to visit the Sand Hills. He didn't write anything that hasn't been written before and he was highly complimentary about your course and club. You sure you want to keep going down this road?  

+1 -- all too typical of the SH's crowd around here -- never letting any even modest critique of the course pass by without a comment defending its honor.

[Mike Hendren]

Surely the 1% has something better to do than get wrapped around the axle over the relative merits of golf courses in the Sand Hills.  Then again, spirited debate is much more fun than the quarterly report I can no longer put off.

Sand Hills is not a difficult walk.  It is among my favorite 10 courses in the country.  It is not perfect as some suggest, just mighty close.
Ballyneal is a better walk.  It is among my favorite 25 courses in the country, a notch below Sand Hills in my book. 

Question, when is the last time we debated the walkability of a golf course designed by Donald J. Ross? 

Gas carts are a good thing at destination courses,  where walking the first 18 is simply not enough satifaction for the once-in-a-life time wanderlust (even when it's your fourteen-in-a-lifetime).

Neither the greatness of Sand Hills nor its first-born status in any way impacts the relative merits of other courses in the region.  Both Dismal River and Prairie Club are worthy of an independent visit notwithstanding the fact that they are a notch of two below the two aforementioned courses in my opinion.

We are all so damned spoiled.

Bogey

[Matt MacIver]

So...what seaside dune-sy course was the OP thinking about in the top 100 that doesn't have a ground game option?  

For my part I don't think a course with 18 forced carries should be considered all-world, but I don't mind several holes requiring it, as long as they're spaced out, strategic and part of the overall package.  

Re great courses vs. fun courses: I'm looking forward to seeing PV and SH for what the have to offer top flight golfers; I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing Ballyneal for what it offers ME.  

For that reason if I had a jet I'd transport myself to BN first, but if the pros could tee it up anywhere I'd be most interested in watching them tackle PV or a windy SH.  

[Gene Greco]

There is stuff I'm not enamoured with at BN (Ballyneal) too but I doubt I will ever share it on here.

                                                              Why not?

Sheehy-I`m with the Doc. What happened to frank commentary my boy?

    

    Could anyone honestly answer the question which I posed as to why Brian was so reluctant to post what he found lacking at Ballyneal?

                                     If so, then one will truly see the complete irony of this entire debate.



As far as all the golf courses are concerned, El Bogero is correct in stating that each are worthy of an independent visit. Those reading these comments from around the world must understand that the land these golf courses rest on is almost beyond description. "The greatest grass covered dunes land in the world" is what a couple of prominent golf course architects have stated in the past. They are all epic and grand.


                                                                  

[John Kavanaugh]

    

    Could anyone honestly answer the question which I posed as to why Brian was so reluctant to post what he found lacking at Ballyneal?

 
                                                      

Gene,

The honest answer is that it is difficult to get past the hard feelings created by Rupert.  I love Ballyneal and 99% of her members but every time I try to express an unbiased opinion of the value of the course I get stuck by the emotions that are still too fresh to look past.  This, to me, makes the majority of critiques worthless on any level beyond petty gossip.

That being said, for Brian to say greens are too slow in 108 degree heat is either ignorant or misguided.  I have played Ballyneal when the greens are slow, fast and just right.  Courses change day to day and hour to hour so a one time visitor commenting on conditioning is always suspect.

[Mac Plumart]

Those reading these comments from around the world must understand that the land these golf courses rest on is almost beyond description.

Yes, sir!  They are truly amazing!!  I told my latest guest to the region during our trek out to Mullen that I thought the land in Mullen was the best I'd ever seen for the game of golf.  This comment drew a doubtful look.  However, the doubts were removed when he saw the land.  Magnificent!!

[Ben Sims]

Though I do not want to overshadow the routing and the shaping/finish work (which I believe to be Renaissance's best); the beauty of Ballyneal is a direct result of two things 1) fescue turf 2) climate

In Ballyneal we have an aggressive--and controversial--decision to use a fine fescue blend on the entire golf course in a brutally difficult climate for that selection.  Triple digit temps, 40 knot winds, snow coverage, these are the conditions that Dave Hensley combats on a year to year basis.  The climate combined with the turf selection creates a situation where Ballyneal--as much or more than any course I have ever seen--changes greatly day to day, even hour to hour.   This is also why the feature shaping both inside the green surfaces and outside the green surfaces are so novel.  They aren't exclusionary. The ball can be worked to a pin using the green itself, or the area outside of it.

Additionally, this is also why I consider Dave a genius.  There are very few people who can do what he does with fescue, in that climate, on his budget. 

[Carl Johnson]

Is the concept of ground game though of too narrowly, in terms of approaches only?

Never been to BN, SH, LV or PV, so I'll go back to this question.  Greg, I think you've got a good point.  As a personal preference, I like to be able to hit low drives and low fairway shots and have them run out.  At my skill level, the higher I get the ball in the air, the more likely it's going go somewhere I do not want it to.  Of course, I also prefer chip and run approaches if I have the opportunity.  However, others might not like to play it that way.  From my perspective, a great course should permit a ground game, but generally not require it.