[Patrick_Mucci]

In California you have Trump National Los Angeles which if not a "bad" course is definitely not a good one.  Monarch Beach Golf Links is pretty poor. 

David Kelly,

Pete Dye designed that course, which had the unfortunate incident where a landslide altered the course.

Have you played the course, pre and post landslide.

Would you tell us how Pete Dye designed a "bad" golf course ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

This one looks like a waste of time...

Kyle & Matt,

Have you played this course ?

Doesn't Pebble Beach have nine (9) holes on the water ?

http://www.dunesgolfsanibel.com/golf/

I've never seen so much water on a golf course map. Ermahgerd.

[David Bartman]

This one looks like a waste of time...

Kyle & Matt,

Have you played this course ?

Doesn't Pebble Beach have nine (9) holes on the water ?

I only count 8 ( 4,5,7,8,9,10,17,18) did I miss one?

http://www.dunesgolfsanibel.com/golf/

I've never seen so much water on a golf course map. Ermahgerd.

[William_G]

This one looks like a waste of time...

Kyle & Matt,

Have you played this course ?

Doesn't Pebble Beach have nine (9) holes on the water ?

I only count 8 ( 4,5,7,8,9,10,17,18) did I miss one?

http://www.dunesgolfsanibel.com/golf/

I've never seen so much water on a golf course map. Ermahgerd.

4,5,7,8,9,10,17,18 and #6 fairway

[Matthew Petersen]

Yes, #6 at Pebble Beach very definitely is on the water.

[David Kelly]

.

[Patrick_Mucci]

In California you have Trump National Los Angeles which if not a "bad" course is definitely not a good one.  Monarch Beach Golf Links is pretty poor. 

Pre and post, "if not a bad course is definitely not a good one."

Where did Pete Dye go wrong ?

[David Bartman]

 Ocean Trails / Trump

IMO, the green complexes are not at all compatible with the clubs that are being hit into the various holes.  

PB,

Yep forgot about that part on the right of 6

[David_Elvins]

Kyle & Matt,

Have you played this course ?

Doesn't Pebble Beach have nine (9) holes on the water ?[/b][/size][/color]

http://www.dunesgolfsanibel.com/golf/

Pat,
At some stage it is possible to make a judgement without playing a course.  I would be able to tell you that a course with 18 island greens would be bad without having played it, for example.  

Likewise, It is reasonable to surmise that a course that has water bounding 18 holes and on 8 of those holes has water bounding both sides of the hole is bad without having to play the course.  The fact that Pebble Beach has 9 holes bounded by water is not a relevant comparison, much like a course with 1 island green is not a reasonable reason to build a course with 18 island greens.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ocean Trails / Trump

IMO, the green complexes are not at all compatible with the clubs that are being hit into the various holes.  

How so ?


PB,

Yep forgot about that part on the right of 6

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
At some stage it is possible to make a judgement without playing a course.  

I guess you could make a "judgement" about how a meal tastes based upon how it looks in a poster, or how a woman is in bed based upon a photo of her, but what credibility would you assign to those evaluations ?

Charles Blair Macdonald, on page 295 of "Scotland's Gift" expressed his opinion on your question, in the negative.
I don't see how you can evaluate the play of a course without ever seeing it.

I would be able to tell you that a course with 18 island greens would be bad without having played it, for example.  

That's a predisposed hypothetical where the assumption predetermines the outcome.
A hypothetical extreme doesn't make your case..

Likewise, It is reasonable to surmise that a course that has water bounding 18 holes and on 8 of those holes has water bounding both sides of the hole is bad without having to play the course.  

I don't think it is reasonable since you don't know if the water actually comes into play.
After all you're just looking at a schematic which may or may not be accurate.

The fact that Pebble Beach has 9 holes bounded by water is not a relevant comparison,

Sure it is.

It shows that water flanking nine holes doesn't diminish the greatness of a course.

much like a course with 1 island green is not a reasonable reason to build a course with 18 island greens.  

Again, another extreme hypothetical.

If each of the holes at PB had water on both sides, would the quality of each of the holes be that much worse ?
Would it depend upon whether the water is in or out of play ?
And by how much ?

Hypotheticals are worthless when evaluating a golf course.

[David_Elvins]

I guess you could make a "judgement" about how a meal tastes based upon how it looks in a poster, or how a woman is in bed based upon a photo of her, but what credibility would you assign to those evaluations ?

If you need to eat either of the following to make an evaluation on the above, then you are an inefficient user of time.   

[Bart Bradley]

I guess you could make a "judgement" about how a meal tastes based upon how it looks in a poster, or how a woman is in bed based upon a photo of her, but what credibility would you assign to those evaluations ?

If you need to eat either of the following to make an evaluation on the above, then you are an inefficient user of time.   

David:

BRAVO.  My whole family is laughing!

Yes, I agree...some things don't require the full experience to make a judgement.

Hoping your well...wishing I were back in Melbourne.

Bart

[Patrick_Mucci]

I guess you could make a "judgement" about how a meal tastes based upon how it looks in a poster, or how a woman is in bed based upon a photo of her, but what credibility would you assign to those evaluations ?

If you need to eat either of the following to make an evaluation on the above, then you are an inefficient user of time.   

While neither of the two pictures below may not seem appetizing to you, there are those, not me, who would find them very appealing.

But, again, you've gone to an extreme.

The fact is, you don't know what the meal in the picture tastes like, you can only guess.

And that's what most who have never seen a golf course do when they attempt to evaluate it.

Reread page 295 of "Scotland's Gift"

[David_Elvins]

But, again, you've gone to an extreme.

Extreme examples are the only relevant examples because the golf course discussed is extreme in it's design.  Water in play on every hole is extreme. Water in play on both sides of 8 holes is extreme.

Pebble Beach, by contrast, is no a relevant example because water in play on 9 holes is not extreme.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

But, again, you've gone to an extreme.

Extreme examples are the only relevant examples because the golf course discussed is extreme in it's design.  Water in play on every hole is extreme. Water in play on both sides of 8 holes is extreme.

How do you know ?
You're only looking at a schematic.
You don't know how the course plays or how wide the corridors of play are.

Pebble Beach, by contrast, is no a relevant example because water in play on 9 holes is not extreme. 

But, it is, because the water is really within the corridors of play. 

[John Crowley]

I can only opine on the first nine at Trump National on CA coast. It is on a piece of land that never should have been used for golf.  And the design is boring back and forth on narrow terraces with outrageous contrived water features (not the Pacific). I feigned injury and happily left after 9.

[Dan Kelly]

I wish the typical golf course were as inventive as that Corn Dog Pizza. We'd have even more to talk about here.

[David Kelly]

In California you have Trump National Los Angeles which if not a "bad" course is definitely not a good one.  Monarch Beach Golf Links is pretty poor. 

Pre and post, "if not a bad course is definitely not a good one."

Where did Pete Dye go wrong ?

Where did he go wrong?
The land was really not suited for golf.  The course resembles the terrace farming used in Italy.
The playing corridors are not wide enough and each hole has a concrete curbed cart path that runs the entire length of one side of the hole (usually the higher side) and is often in play.
The first hole has an incredibly annoying fake water feature that drowns out the Pacific Ocean.
Recovery shots are impossible if the fairway is missed by more than a few yards in places.
In addition to the stupid water feature four or five unnatural lakes were added to the property and are really out of place.
The course is unwalkable.
With the exception of the 1st hole all of the holes run either north or south which makes for a very boring routing.
Most of the holes play relatively straight.
The green complexes are pretty redundant, most of the greens are turned at around a 45 degree angle in order to make straight holes seem less straight.
Trump did have people come in and do some additional work on some green complexes to put more variety and interest in them but Dye's original green complexes were pretty boring.
The green contours are unnatural and often don't tie in to the surrounding land.
The course feels very unnatural and contrived.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

There are lots of bad courses on bays and lakes.

Sam, 

Could you identify them and tell us if you've played them ?

Kyle,

Have you played Sanibel ?

No - I have better things to do.  Have you?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Kyle,

I don't offer evaluations of courses I've never played and Sanibel is one of them.

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Kyle,

I don't offer evaluations of courses I've never played and Sanibel is one of them.

Do you believe that there can be bad courses on the water?  If not, perhaps you should make a visit to Sanibel a priority this winter.

[Greg Tallman]

Bad courses on the ocean:

1. Mahogany Run (St Thomas)
2. Buccaneer GC (St Croix)
3. Mullet Bay (St. Maarten) perhaps only for condition... & politics

As for The Dunes on Sanibel I would say it falls under the question posed earlier... what is the intent? The intent there was to cram a public golf course onto a small island with environmental restrictions abound. For a good part of the "florida crowd" it is perfectly serviceable though I would not play it... head to The Bubble Room instead. The private club on Sanibel (Sanctuary) is not very good either. Heck the little course at South Seas Plantation on Captiva is the most fun of the lot.

[Carl Nichols]

Pat:
What is your definition of "a bad golf course"?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat:
What is your definition of "a bad golf course"?


And people complain that the quality of the topics and questions have gone down hill over the years !

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