How could Lytham keep the bunkers dry?

[Matthew Runde]

In ABC's coverage, today, they showed a bunker that had water in it.  A commentator mentioned that before the round, the water had been removed from the bunkers, and that during the round, new water had seeped in from the overly-wet ground.  It seems as though there must be a straightforward solution to this problem.  Is there, and if so, why wasn't it implemented before the event?

[Mark Chaplin]

Canopies?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

It depends on the water table which they are saying is near the surface right now. I would think if this is normal or happens more than once every few years, then the traps should have liners which keep ground water out.

[Ryan DeMay]

It depends on the water table which they are saying is near the surface right now. I would think if this is normal or happens more than once every few years, then the traps should have liners which keep ground water out.

Tiger,

If an impermeable liner was installed as you suggest, how would the rain and irrigation water drain downward?  

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

That is where the drainage system come into play. And then the pumps should work.

[Jon Wiggett]

That is where the drainage system come into play. And then the pumps should work.

Tiger,

I suspect that the water pressure would push the liner up. Also, super expensive solution to a problem that very rarely happens.

[James Boon]

Matthew, Tiger,

I suspect Lytham's bunkers drain fine after its rained, but after the levels of rain we've had in this country recently there isnt much that can be done about a high water table which is such a rare occurance. Its an outdoor sport after all and dealing with the elements is part of this. I'm not saying I want to see players taking drops that plug as they've been in a puddle in a bunker. I'm just saying that coming up with a man made solution isnt something we should get too excited about. 

Cheers,

James

[Ally Mcintosh]

Not with bunker liner.

For recent examples of similar problems with high water tables, the main prompt for Hawtree's complete renovation at Royal Dublin was for this reason. And Portmarnock underwent an extensive programme of "lifting" their bunker bottoms by about one metre a number of years ago for the same water table reasons. Two years ago, we lifted the first 150m of the sixth fairway by one metre also and put in tile drainage on the 5th (there is only tile drainage on 4th, 5th & 6th fairways)

In our wettest year before this one (2008), I saw the entire 2nd half of The Island's 12th fairway submerged in a 100m x 50m lake...

The new Trump course is built high in some dunes but because it's on a glacial landform where water is held above normal, they had quite a few conundrums with how to deal with the water course. That's why it's faintly ridiculous to hear some views that the water that appears on the course may be because Trump demanded water features or other such nonsense... That said, I'd be a little disappointed if it shows signs of holding water where it's not supposed to, considering the budget and Hawtree's previous experience with links drainage...

A course like Carne is also up high in the dunes but is more or less built on metres and metres of sand so I think they have very few problems...

[Randy Thompson]

Liners would not be the solution, an impermeable liner would just increase in the problems on a daily basis following all rains not just excessive rains like they have been experiencing. If the problems were the water tables, then Jon is correct that the pressure would push the liner up. We have built a lot of courses in swamps because of it being inexpensive land near densely populated areas. We do that by building lakes and harvesting the material and raising the natural terrain. So how do work in a swamp to harvest the material? You make a five or six foot deep trench five to six wide around, say around quarter of an acre or half acre for example, leaving what look likes a big birthday cake around the trench. The water moves ever so slowly due to gravitational force to the trenches and you keep a pump running and pump out the trench continually. In time you dry out the first two or three feet of the birthday cake and you now can enter with machine and truck and haul out the material. In a little more time you dry out the next two to three feet and then you deepen the trench again and before you know it you have removed the material from the birthday cake and you have a nine foot depression. You stop pumping and it fill up, forming a lake. I think this is what is happening with these bunkers on a smaller scale. You have a saturated soil around the bunker and the gravitational forces cause the water to accumulate it in the bunker base. So it make sense to me that they pump out the bunker in the morning and in the afternoon you will find water in the bunker once again due to these downward gravitational forces around the bunker. If it was really the water table that high, than I doubt the water table would drop or fluctuate that much in twenty four hours and we would have seen similar conditions on Sunday. I am not an expert on the area and there may be some factors that I am not aware of but this is what makes sense to me. If what I am saying is the case, it also explains why nothing is being done because there isnīt any real practical solution.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Randy I not sure I agree in a sea side setting. I do understand you are describing the method of choice over the last 30 years. I think there are new ways to play liners and pump systems along with use of computers to move water through the system. Augusta nat can afford the best and I am sure the R&A can as well. The traps were a maintenance issue and not a weather one. The club and R&A dropped a doogie on the head of the players this week. Water tables are something that can be quantified and predicted.

[David_Elvins]

Randy I not sure I agree in a sea side setting. I do understand you are describing the method of choice over the last 30 years. I think there are new ways to play liners and pump systems along with use of computers to move water through the system. Augusta nat can afford the best and I am sure the R&A can as well. The traps were a maintenance issue and not a weather one. The club and R&A dropped a doogie on the head of the players this week. Water tables are something that can be quantified and predicted.

Tiger, 

Are you able to expand on these points a bit? 

How can the water table be quantified and predicted? 

How would liners and a pump system work in moving water through the system?  Are you talking about artificially lowering the water table across the whole golf course property? 

[Jonathan Mallard]

Randy I not sure I agree in a sea side setting. I do understand you are describing the method of choice over the last 30 years. I think there are new ways to play liners and pump systems along with use of computers to move water through the system. Augusta nat can afford the best and I am sure the R&A can as well. The traps were a maintenance issue and not a weather one. The club and R&A dropped a doogie on the head of the players this week. Water tables are something that can be quantified and predicted.

Tiger, 

Are you able to expand on these points a bit? 

How can the water table be quantified and predicted? 

How would liners and a pump system work in moving water through the system?  Are you talking about artificially lowering the water table across the whole golf course property? 

I'll expand.

Water tables can be quantified and predicted through flownets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flownet

Water tables can be tweaked via cofferdams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofferdam

In this application, you'd be looking at a whole lot of little cofferdams in the vicinity of the bunkers. However, I think what you'd find is that in lowering the water table in all of the bunkers, you'd wind up raising the water table somewhere you'd rather not - like a landing area in a particular fairway, or perhaps in someone's backyard adjacent to the course.

[Tom_Doak]

St. Andrews used to have the same problem of water standing in the bunkers after a wet period ... a lot of The Old Course is very close to water table.  They solved it by running a lot of big drainage lines and by raising the floors of some of the lowest bunkers.  But, you've got to have somewhere to take the water to an even lower point for a low-tech solution like that to work.  I don't know just how low Lytham sits relative to sea level or a drainage point headed off property.  Is it the only course on the Rota that doesn't have a burn running through it and out to sea?

Tiger, I don't think liners have much to do with it, you've got to get the water table lower.  You can do that with big drains running at 0.5% or even less, or with a pumping system.

The most sophisticated pumping system that I know of is the one Pete Dye installed at Old Marsh, where the whole site was very close to underwater.  It worked so well that Pete used it again on the Ocean course at Kiawah, ironically, the next major venue.  It would be great if they had a feature on exactly how it all works ... like that would ever happen.  I don't have all the details but I know it makes 0% fall still drain, through a system of mains and sump pumps.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

Pete was able to install his inverted drainage system because he could mold the fairways to meet the demands of the system.

In other words,  it was an integrated custom designed drainage and recapture system, one that would be difficult to introduce on an existing site.

Let's also not forget that everyone has been telling us that it's been a very wet spring and summer.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Doak,

Pete was able to install his inverted drainage system because he could mold the fairways to meet the demands of the system.

In other words,  it was an integrated custom designed drainage and recapture system, one that would be difficult to introduce on an existing site.

Let's also not forget that everyone has been telling us that it's been a very wet spring and summer.

Patrick:

That's true, but Pete was also quite close to working at elevation zero, which is the one limitation you can't overcome.

If Lytham is far enough above zero, then they could make it work.  But, it would be a very large expense just to deal with a worst-case scenario.  In olden days, they played out of waterlogged bunkers -- see Freddie Tait at Prestwick, 1899 -- but later they made a rule to deal with them, instead of a million-dollar drainage solution.

[David_Elvins]

I'll expand.

Water tables can be quantified and predicted through flownets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flownet

Water tables can be tweaked via cofferdams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofferdam

In this application, you'd be looking at a whole lot of little cofferdams in the vicinity of the bunkers. However, I think what you'd find is that in lowering the water table in all of the bunkers, you'd wind up raising the water table somewhere you'd rather not - like a landing area in a particular fairway, or perhaps in someone's backyard adjacent to the course.

Jonathan

How do flownets predict seasonal changes in the height of the water table?  

On what sort of projects have people used coffer dams to alter the water table?

[Randy Thompson]

Tom,
I believe they also did the same with Medalist. Not sure which one was first, Medalist or Old Marsh. I think the idea was also to capture any pesticides and nutrients being leached into the water table and recycling them within the same property.
Tiger,
Were getting to an agreement, big drain lines, sump pumps, computerized ect..Not really practical. I wonder how much it would cost to improve the bunkers how many days every couple of years and how much they would have to raise the greens fee or dues and as a result make it less accessible to the general golfing market. The market needs to go in the other direction of Augusta and in my opinion should be an example of how not to do things, which is a pretty basic philosophy, throw money at it and if that doesnīt work throw more money at it. Granted having a little water created a small problem this weekend but I think a bigger day to day problem they have for example is the native fine round sand that allows for fried eggs in bunkers that are so penalizing. But replacing the sand with silica sharp angular sand would cause the course to lose a lot of its original character so I doubt they will address that problem either. To me links golf means the weather factors into the play and so why try to correct those factors.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Randy,

Old Marsh came first

[Randy Thompson]

Thanks Patrick!

[Jonathan Mallard]

I'll expand.

Water tables can be quantified and predicted through flownets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flownet

Water tables can be tweaked via cofferdams.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofferdam

In this application, you'd be looking at a whole lot of little cofferdams in the vicinity of the bunkers. However, I think what you'd find is that in lowering the water table in all of the bunkers, you'd wind up raising the water table somewhere you'd rather not - like a landing area in a particular fairway, or perhaps in someone's backyard adjacent to the course.

Jonathan

How do flownets predict seasonal changes in the height of the water table?  

On what sort of projects have people used coffer dams to alter the water table?

David:

Flownets don't predict seasonal changes in water table heights. They predict where your water table lies at a given local point after accounting for all sorts of things like aquifers, dams, and other hydraulic structures.

Cofferdams are usually used to alter the water table on a temporary basis. They're used all the time to build what we call shallow foundations for bridges in marine environments. They're very rarely used permanently, but I gave it as an example of how you could accomplish the objective in this case - which is to keep the water out of the bunkers. You can see some examples in the link I posted.

[Matthew Runde]

*Snip*

To me links golf means the weather factors into the play and so why try to correct those factors.

That was another aspect I was considering.  Should the water be counted as part of the game and left there for players to challenge at their peril (without providing relief)?  If the rules provide complete relief and all of the bunkers are full of water, then suddenly there are no bunkers.  If the rules provide no relief, then 200+ water hazards are added.  I think that changing the local rules may be easier for everyone than figuring out how to keep the bunkers dry.  Still, it would be nice to see the tournament played in common conditions.

[Jon Wiggett]

Water remaining in a FEW of the many bunkers at RL&A is a very rare occurane. It therefore amazes me that some here believe spending vast amounts of money to solve a problem that is rare is even worth the time of day.

Tom,

many of the bunkers at TOC still have water in them after periods of severe rainfall. Hell looked like a swimming pool when I saw it in march.

Jon

[Donnie Beck]

Bunkers are hazards !!!! I found it interesting to watch how the players hit out of the different sands. (wet/dry)

[Mark Pearce]

The Old Course was closed for an hour on Wednesday as the course was flooded in places.  The Swilcan burn had overflowed on the 18th fairway and there was a large pool of water by the burn until late on Thursday.  The amount of rain we have had this year means that there is nowhere for heavy rain to go.  In the circumstances, I thought Lytham looked to be in remarkably good nick.

[Jon Wiggett]

The Old Course was closed for an hour on Wednesday as the course was flooded in places.  The Swilcan burn had overflowed on the 18th fairway and there was a large pool of water by the burn until late on Thursday.  The amount of rain we have had this year means that there is nowhere for heavy rain to go.  In the circumstances, I thought Lytham looked to be in remarkably good nick.

Mark,

maybe they should raise the level of the whole course by 3 foot

Jon