News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Please note, each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us and we will be in contact.


Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
The Open Championship - England
« on: July 21, 2012, 04:19:34 PM »
When did they start playing it in England back in the day? Why? Political play? Lack of Scottish options? Any insight?

Royal St George's Golf Club: This course is in the town of Sandwich in the county of Kent in southeast England. In 1894 it became the first Open venue outside Scotland. After a 32 year absence, it returned to the rota in 1981, and last hosted in 2011.
Royal Birkdale Golf Club: This course in northwest England has been in the rotation since 1954 and hosted The Open in 2008.
Royal Lytham & St Annes Golf Club: Also in northwest England, this course first hosted The Open in 1926 but has only hosted it regularly since 1952. It hosted the 2012 Open.
Royal Liverpool Golf Club: This course, often referred to simply as "Hoylake", joined the rotation in 1897 and hosted ten Opens up to 1967. After a 39 year absence, it returned to the rota in 2006, and is scheduled to host again in 2014.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 04:59:24 PM »
When did they start playing it in England back in the day? Why? Political play? Lack of Scottish options? Any insight?

Royal St George's Golf Club: This course is in the town of Sandwich in the county of Kent in southeast England. In 1894 it became the first Open venue outside Scotland. After a 32 year absence, it returned to the rota in 1981, and last hosted in 2011.
Royal Birkdale Golf Club: This course in northwest England has been in the rotation since 1954 and hosted The Open in 2008.
Royal Lytham & St Annes Golf Club: Also in northwest England, this course first hosted The Open in 1926 but has only hosted it regularly since 1952. It hosted the 2012 Open.
Royal Liverpool Golf Club: This course, often referred to simply as "Hoylake", joined the rotation in 1897 and hosted ten Opens up to 1967. After a 39 year absence, it returned to the rota in 2006, and is scheduled to host again in 2014.
Niall i think it was just the fact the field was made up of more travelling English pro's and the powers that be had their roots in places like Hoylake and RSG. Birkdale was added to the rotation for the 1940 Open which did not happen. They were going to drop Lytham or it was talked about after the 88 Open because its very cramped, RSG, Liverpool and Portrush have been dropped but RSG, Hoylake and Lytham get great attendances.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 05:28:37 PM »
Worry not. After the rebellious Scots gain independence, and they're no longer part of the United Kingdom, THE (British - England, Wales and NI) Open will ALWAYS be played in England, Wales or NI. OR the R&A become simply The, ehm, 'A' and everything carries on the same.

All in jest - of course.........

F.

PS I AM MHM.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 05:35:40 PM »
Worry not. After the rebellious Scots gain independence, and they're no longer part of the United Kingdom, THE (British - England, Wales and NI) Open will ALWAYS be played in England, Wales or NI. OR the R&A become simply The, ehm, 'A' and everything carries on the same.

All in jest - of course.........

F.

PS I AM MHM.

It's The Open Championship.  Not the British.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 05:36:17 PM »

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2012, 05:38:56 PM »
Niall,
you need not remind me it's THE OPEN. Been trying to educate these bloody colonial rubes for years now.
I was trying to accentuate the non-Scottish portion of the 'British-ness' thing.
(seemed to make sense in my head at the time... 8))
cheery,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 05:42:17 PM »
Completely agree with you!

rboyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2012, 06:45:55 PM »
Peter Alliss made more interesting comments in the first six minutes I caught on tv than the rest of the commentators did all day. He said, "par should be done away with, it's total score that matters." Shortly thereafter he lamented slow play while the camera locked onto Ian Poulter.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 07:32:50 PM »
Niall,
you need not remind me it's THE OPEN. Been trying to educate these bloody colonial rubes for years now.
I was trying to accentuate the non-Scottish portion of the 'British-ness' thing.
Why not prove it is not the British by playing it in Canada or Australia, or even the ROI?

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 07:43:17 PM »
Peter Alliss made more interesting comments in the first six minutes I caught on tv than the rest of the commentators did all day. He said, "par should be done away with, it's total score that matters." Shortly thereafter he lamented slow play while the camera locked onto Ian Poulter.

Question:  Without using par as a marker, how do tell where various competitors stand with respect to each other (and don't say "by height"). 

If I had to decipher "Woods stands at 212 shots through 56 holes, while Scott is at 203 through 54 holes," my mind might explode.

Like it or not, the over/under system (first used at the Masters), makes it a bit easier to follow the action.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

mike_beene

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2012, 07:52:57 PM »
How much acreage does the course at Lytham sit on?How far off the fairway is the OB on the first few holes?Is there any significant OB coming home?

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2012, 07:58:40 PM »
Wayne lets have the US Open in China then. It's called the Open because anyone can enter not where it's based.
Cave Nil Vino

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2012, 08:51:15 PM »
Wayne lets have the US Open in China then. It's called the Open because anyone can enter not where it's based.
I know that but it is not called the British Open, unlike the US Open, Canadian Open, etc.  The tournament is administered by the R&A, not the UK Golf Union (if such a body exists).  And the R&A sets the rules of golf everywhere in the world except the US and Mexico. 

Therefore why does it have to be held on the island of Great Britain, and as we discussed in another thread, it was once held outside of Britain in Northern Ireland?  If it can be held in Northern Ireland, then why not the Republic?  And if it can be held there then why not in the Netherlands?  etc, etc

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2012, 09:30:44 PM »
Good point Wayne.  Though it is obviously traditional to have in Scotland.  My question is really why did England get included? What prompted it? Certainly not from a lack of worthy candidates in Scotland. What made the R&A decide to include England? 

Joey Chase

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2012, 11:05:33 PM »
On your list, you've forgotten two other English venues.  Deal and Princes were both sites in the past.  Maybe it could return to Deal again?

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2012, 12:39:52 AM »
On your list, you've forgotten two other English venues.  Deal and Princes were both sites in the past.  Maybe it could return to Deal again?

Five courses have hosted the Open but are no longer in the rotation:
 – Prestwick Golf Club: The founder club was dropped from the rotation in 1925, by which time it had hosted twenty-four Opens.
 – Musselburgh Links: Musselburgh is a public course which was used by the Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers. When that club built Muirfield, Musselburgh dropped out of the rotation.
 – Royal Cinque Ports Golf Club: This course in the town of Deal in Kent hosted the Open in 1909 and 1920. Although situated in Deal, the course is very close to Royal St George's in Sandwich, on the current rota. In fact, the 11th tee at Royal Cinque Ports is closer to the clubhouse at Royal St George's than it is to the clubhouse of Royal Cinque Ports.
 – Prince's Golf Club: Prince's hosted its only Open in 1932. The course is in Sandwich, Kent, and is adjacent to Royal St George's on the current rota.
 – Royal Portrush Golf Club: The 1951 Open was staged at Royal Portrush in Northern Ireland, the only Open not played in Scotland or England.


Most likely return is probably Portrush.  Not sure any are real likely though.....

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2012, 02:02:06 AM »
Niall

I think as the game grew, English golf grew and became more powerful.  Hoylake (very much a premier club) and Sandwich (London connections) were the two most powerful outposts of English golf and had championship quality courses so they were obvious choices to host an Open.  Only three clubs had hosted previous to this.  I do think other clubs were considered as well,  but didn't make the grade. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2012, 10:09:13 AM »
Jack Nicklaus infamously opined that British Open venues get worse the further south you go...

Niall Hay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Open Championship - England
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2012, 10:15:50 AM »
SANDWICH, England -- Perhaps it has something to do with being a good line, and making some sense, and coming from a guy who certainly has the credentials to know.
But the quote and its various permutations have been kicked around so many times over the years that it has come to be accepted truth that Jack Nicklaus said, and we paraphrase, that British Open venues get worse the farther south you go.
That would be a direct slap at Royal St. George's, the first course in England to host the world's oldest golf tournament and the site of the 140th Open Championship this week. Located in southeast England, it is the closest Open venue to London -- and the farthest south.
"I would never have said that," Nicklaus said recently when asked directly about the quotation, then quickly quipped: "Probably did."
The three-time Open champion went on to explain.
"I preferred the Scottish venues to the English venues," said the Golden Bear, who won two of his Opens at St. Andrews and the other at Muirfield, both in Scotland. "I think the type of golf in Scotland is a little different than the type of golf in England and the farther south you went the more sort of a hummocks and bee hills and stuff that was different.
"I didn't have very good finishes at St. George's. You always seem to rank courses on how you perform, so I like the Scottish venues better."
Whether Nicklaus made such statements about the course known simply as Sandwich or not, it is clear that Royal St. George's has its detractors.
Asked where he would rank it among the list of British Open venues, 1989 champion Mark Calcavecchia didn't waste words: "Dead last," he said.
Steve Elkington once famously said that Royal St. George's was 10th on his list of Open venues.
Of course, there are only nine in the current rotation.
And yet, it will host the Open for the 14th time this week, the first since Ben Curtis' shocking victory in 2003. It has some unusual distinctions, such as being the only Open venue to have a winner shoot all four rounds in the 80s -- as well as another winner shoot all four rounds in the 60s.
Perhaps Nicklaus' opening-round 83 in 1981 has something to do with his feelings about the course, and Bobby Jones once shot 86 there.
"There are a bunch of fairways you can't hit," Calcavecchia said. "There are a few blind tee balls. And it seems like some of the angles and where bunkers are, are kind of quirky.
"Having said that, it's still my favorite tournament. I'm looking forward to it."
The course measures 7,211 yards, will play to par-70 and, like any links, will very much be at the mercy of the weather. Eight years ago, Curtis beat Vijay Singh and Thomas Bjorn by a stroke in a heat wave, which made the course extremely dry and fast. Curtis was the only player to finish under par. And yet, 10 years earlier, both Ernie Els and Greg Norman shot all four rounds in the 60s, the Shark winning his second Open by shooting 13 under par.
What bugs those who don't care for the course is the abundance of slopes and bumps that propel a seemingly good tee shot into a bad one. Several of the fairways are crowned in the middle, and some adjustments were made after 2003 to either smooth things out or widen the landing areas. Still, that kind of luck factor has a way of getting on players' nerves.
"I think it's the most unpredictable of the venues I've played," said 1996 Open champion Tom Lehman. "There are so many unique shapes on the golf course where the ball gets kicked one way or another. It requires a lot of course management and really understanding how to play the course to do it right.
"I'll give you an example, the 17th hole, the areas where the drives come down. There are a million bumps all over the fairway. Guys were so upset because they hit a good-looking drive, they hit the side of a bump and it would kick one way or another and run down into the high crap," he said.
"But just short of that is a real flat area. The course was designed to hit a shot into that flat area and run into the bumps. You can keep yourself in the fairway. To me, understanding the strategy of the course is what is very, very interesting to me. It's very enjoyable."
Or perhaps ignorance is bliss.
Curtis won the tournament eight years ago having never before played a links. It was his first visit to England, his first start in a major championship. He said upon arriving at the first tee, he couldn't even tell how the fairway went.
"The course itself is really a beast of a golf course," said Sandy Lyle, who won the Open at Royal St. George's in 1985. "St. Andrews is a lot more friendly golf course even though last year we had some unfriendly conditions. The Birkdales and Carnousties and Royal St. George's … those are the beasts. You really have to have your game. Be patient.
"There are no adjoining fairways like a lot of links courses. You get deeper and deeper in to the rubbish. You have to be very accurate in places and it's not a very friendly course if it is breezy."
For all the supposition about Nicklaus' apparent dislike for the venue, the Golden Bear actually won at Royal St. George's during a 1959 amateur event he played while in Britain for the British Amateur and the Walker Cup matches.
And that came after four-putting the first green, he recalled.
It also should be noted that Nicklaus' prime as a golfer in the British Open never saw him play at Royal St. George's. After the 1949 Open, the tournament did not return to the venue until 1981, at which point Nicklaus was 41. From 1963 through 1980, Nicklaus' worst finish at the British was a tie for 12th.
At Royal St. George's, Nicklaus tied for 23rd in 1981, then missed the cut in 1985 and 1993.
"I just did better at the Scottish venues so I like the Scottish venues better," Nicklaus, 71, said. "But I never said the further south you got, the worse the courses were. I never said that. Not that I can ever recall."
Uh, Jack … could it have been the other way around? The farther north you go, the better the British courses get?
"I might have said that," Nicklaus joked.
Bob Harig covers golf for ESPN.com. He can be reached at BobHarig@gmail.com.



Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back