MacDonald, Raynor, Banks par 3s Questions

[Bill Brightly]

My understanding is that Banks did ECCC, not Raynor, but I could be wrong.

Montclair has four nines, three by Ross and the most recent (the 4th nine) designed by Banks in 1929, and both Par 3s on the 4th nine are terrific templates.  The 3rd is a 220 yard Redan and the 7th is a 160 yard Short.  I have been told that several of the other holes are templates as well, though I can only identify the 1st, which is a terrific par-5 Punchbowl.  I have heard the 2nd referred to as a Road hole, but I don't see the resemblance with TOC 17.

I would be interested if anyone has insight to these or other holes.

Raynor drew up the plans for the course, but died before completion.  Banks was the one who completed the course, but the routing was Raynor.

Alex,

Do you have Raynor's original plans? When did he draw them up?

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I would love to play a level or slightly downhill punchbowl par 3. What a great and fun hole that would be to play.

[Bill Brightly]

I believe Bill has pointed out in the past his belief that Macdonald used the par 3 holes (many of the "templates") to merge or connect difficult parts of the property, perhaps even picking these spots out first.  One could make the argument this was done at Sleepy with the short #16 being played from the same angle/view as a 19th century Hudson River School painting I have viewed while also traversing a giant chasm.

Both #3 (Eden?) and #16 (short) play over the same ravine, a most difficult spot on the property with few other options.

#7(reverse redan) plays from near the highest spot on the property strongly downhill, totally built along the rocky side of a hill.

#7 (lower course now not used in full 18 routing) previously #2 (biarritz) plays downhill (again a giant almost unsuitable area) to the lowest part of the property.

I do believe we have four original par 3 template "connectors"

I do share George's disdain for #10. lovely, quiet, remote spot but very weak green and of course the RTJ/Rees look with the obligatory stone retaining wall on the pond...Baltusrol, Round Hill, seen these moves before:)

as for modestly less from Mac than his usual designs (according to George) I agree wholeheartedly and though I do not have the benefit of having seen the "lost five holes" (which must have provided wonderful views as they rose to the higher ground to the left of #16 short)I have to think that Mac did provide an "all-world" routing on a most difficult piece of property.  Perhaps so well done that one fails to realize the severity of the terrain covered.  

I think Sleepy Hollow is a great example of how Macdonald used template FEATURES and did not replicate holes, as some critics attempt to state on GCA.COM. I try to be fairly diligent about correcting this misconception when I see such posts.

[George_Bahto]

Bill , I have the concept drawings of both courses - on it, the present private courses shows Raynor and Banks as architects - the old West course, now F Byrne, lists Banks

As far as I can tell, they broke ground for the East course in the fall of 1925 - Raynor died in Jan 1926

[George_Bahto]

here is the Biarritz at Sleepy - circa 1915

[George_Bahto]

my BAD .......  only four holes were sold off at Sleepy Hollow - the fifth hole, present 17 was severely shortened

of the four holes, they came after the Short in the original routing, which was hole #13


the lost holes: (then)
14 was 337
15 was 323
16 was 510
17 was 300 and drawn like a Knoll hole (elevated green)

[DMoriarty]

George and all,

Looking at the old news reports and in CBM's book, it seems CBM fairly enamored the water hazard between tee and green at NGLA. 

Did this "improvement" become part of his Eden concept?  Do all of his (and/or Raynor's) Eden holes contain some sort of hazard between tee and green?

[Jim_Kennedy]

George,
The Biarritz in the old photo looks like it had the same sort of hidden quality as the one at EssexCCC.

Cool picture.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Thanks, George - I appreciate the perspective you and Pat bring to my understanding of Montclair - I have been at MGC 15 years but am just now getting a sense of the history of the place.  I admire what you and others have done at Essex County (phenomenal work), and I am excited about the potential to bring MGC back to its potential - we are making good progress but it is a process and will take some time.

Keith,
My dad used to caddy at Montclair in the 20's and I caddied there in the 50's.
Montclair was my high school team's home course.
During our matches, We could set our watches by the planes going into Newark.
Co-incidentally, tha captain of the team in my sophomore year, contacted me today.

I wish they had located the Tennis courts near the paddle courts and not redesigned/ruined 4 holes on # 1

I used to sneak on to the course and play it with my friends in the afternoons.

At par 70, it's a difficult course.

I wish they hadn't modified a number of the greens, but I understand the influence of increased speeds.



.

[George_Bahto]

George and all,

Looking at the old news reports and in CBM's book, it seems CBM fairly enamored the water hazard between tee and green at NGLA. 

Did this "improvement" become part of his Eden concept?  Do all of his (and/or Raynor's) Eden holes contain some sort of hazard between tee and green?


David: CBM was crazed with the idea of a hazard of sorts between tee and green on Eden holes because, early on, someone (Sandy Herd?) won the Open by using a putter on 11-TOC, in effect, taking 5's, 6's or more, out of his game on that hole

Charlie says, "not on my Eden holes"     

[George_Bahto]

Jim, I'm not a huge fan of Biarritz at Essex County but it is a lot better than the on at Sleepy.

What i do like at ECCC's version is that the green is angled to the line of play - because of drainage problems in that area, you'd be hard pressed to make a good swale - probably never was a good one there anyhow

[DMoriarty]

George,  that is what I figured.  Did Raynor always include this hazard as well?    It seems like is there is a stream or creek or ravine on the property, there is a pretty good chance that they will have used in on their Eden concept. 

What was wrong with the Biarritz at Sleepy Hollow?  I am not sure what I am even looking at in that photo, but it looks like instead of a swale there is just a plateau green set well above the terrain in front.  Or is the swale out of site?  If so is the swale before the rise in the ground up to the green?

[George_Bahto]

George,  that is what I figured.  Did Raynor always include this hazard as well?    It seems like is there is a stream or creek or ravine on the property, there is a pretty good chance that they will have used in on their Eden concept. 

Wherever possible, the feature was included - lots of variations


What was wrong with the Biarritz at Sleepy Hollow?  I am not sure what I am even looking at in that photo, but it looks like instead of a swale there is just a plateau green set well above the terrain in front.  Or is the swale out of site?  If so is the swale before the rise in the ground up to the green

Itz very short - just about 200-yds (the tee is jammed against the previous green, so impossible to length the hole) -   

 itz down hill    you cannot really"see" the front the front section (the area normally before the swale) so consequently, we did not include side bunkering in that area     

 there is no swale to speak of and really not much of a reason to introduce one, given the present configuration of the hole

also it was determined, money would better be spent on other areas of the course 

  hardly any way to really improve the hole

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Based on your description, with no swale to speak of, what makes it a Biarritz ?

Is the green similar, internally, to the 11th at The Creek ?

David Moriarty,

CBM hated the thought of a topped, scuffled or bladed shot running up onto the putting surface of the Eden, therefore he prefered to introduce an intervening feature to prevent that occurrence.

[DMoriarty]

George, Does/did the hole feature any sort of rise up to the green, so that less that well struck shots would not make it onto the putting surface? 
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Patrick,  yes I know but was wondering whether this design characteristic (the intervening hazard) was carried through to most or all of his eden-concept holes, and Raynor's?
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What (if any) are examples eden-concept holes without the intervening hazard?
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George mentioned lots of variations in the Eden concept as applied by CBM . . . looking at all the examples, is it possible to characterize his Eden concept any more specifically than:
1. By length, and
2. By the requirement of a precise shot to a green with a somewhat narrow opening up front, and
3. By a green featuring back to front slope, and
4. By the intervening hazard preventing the run up? 

Did I miss anything?   Is there anything that ought to be on the list but isn't?

[corey miller]

Not sure I have ever seen this photo, Bahto always seems to hold back something from me.   It looks like a bunker to me, nonetheless the swale is at the base of the steep hill in front of the green. 

[Kevin Robinson]

I would love to play a level or slightly downhill punchbowl par 3. What a great and fun hole that would be to play.

I had the opportunity to play The Everglades Club in Palm Beach several years ago - just after the renovation. The Short hole there (can't remember which # it is) has a 130-yard Punchbowl green complex that is a delight to play. As you might imagine it is a VERY flat hole. Everglades is a very unusual course and I've always wondered how faithful the renovation was to the original design. It also happens to have a couple of features that I have not seen elsewhere - such as a VERY short, 160'ish yard Biarritz, a Redan with the principle carry hazard being water (with no front bunker that I can recall), and a "Valley of Sin" type depression fronting the 17th green.

Wanumetonomy and Dedham both have par 3 holes that don't look anything like template holes to me. Wanumetonomy might have been neglected out of existence over the years and Dedham still has 5-6 holes that probably belong to Ross -so I'm not certain how they fit.