MacDonald, Raynor, Banks par 3s Questions

[David Cronheim]

Three quick questions for all the golf course architecture brainiacs out there.

1) Are there any courses built by the trio where only 2 of the 4 par 3s are template holes? I'm aware, of course, that there are courses where there is one unique or non-template par 3. How about where only 2 templates are used (e.g. a Short and an Eden with 2 other non-template par 3's)

2) Are the only templates used by the trio for par 3's: Eden, Biarritz, Redan, and Short? (i.e. are there other, perhaps less well-known holes that they repeated)

3) Has anyone seen a punchbowl green used as a par 3 by the any of Macdonald, Raynor or Banks?

Thanks in advance.

[Alex Lagowitz]

Three quick questions for all the golf course architecture brainiacs out there.

1) Are there any courses built by the trio where only 2 of the 4 par 3s are template holes? I'm aware, of course, that there are courses where there is one unique or non-template par 3. How about where only 2 templates are used (e.g. a Short and an Eden with 2 other non-template par 3's)

2) Are the only templates used by the trio for par 3's: Eden, Biarritz, Redan, and Short? (i.e. are there other, perhaps less well-known holes that they repeated)

3) Has anyone seen a punchbowl green used as a par 3 by the trio?

Thanks in advance.

i'll answer your questions in order:

1. Yes, many of the courses have only some of the par 3's.  At Essex County CC, Raynor kept 2 of tillinghasts par 3s and built an eden and unique biarritz on top of that.  Also, at Essex County West (now Francis Byrne), due to inaccurate land planning, a redan was drawn up but never built and instead became a short.  I'm sure there are more examples of this.

2.  I have also seen combinations of templates. There is a knoll/short template which is best exemplified at Blind Brook.

3.  There are some punchbowl par 3s.  I remember seeing two, but off the top of my head, I only remember the one at Westhampton CC (the third hole)

 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Three quick questions for all the golf course architecture brainiacs out there.

1) Are there any courses built by the trio where only 2 of the 4 par 3s are template holes? I'm aware, of course, that there are courses where there is one unique or non-template par 3. How about where only 2 templates are used (e.g. a Short and an Eden with 2 other non-template par 3's)

Sleepy Hollow has the "short" and a reverse "redan.
Not sure what you'd call the other two, the uphill and over water par 3's.

2) Are the only templates used by the trio for par 3's: Eden, Biarritz, Redan, and Short? (i.e. are there other, perhaps less well-known holes that they repeated)

Punchbowl

3) Has anyone seen a punchbowl green used as a par 3 by the any of Macdonald, Raynor or Banks?

Fishers Island, Westhampton, Montclair to name a few

Thanks in advance.

[David Cronheim]

Three quick questions for all the golf course architecture brainiacs out there.

1) Are there any courses built by the trio where only 2 of the 4 par 3s are template holes? I'm aware, of course, that there are courses where there is one unique or non-template par 3. How about where only 2 templates are used (e.g. a Short and an Eden with 2 other non-template par 3's)

Sleepy Hollow has the "short" and a reverse "redan.
Not sure what you'd call the other two, the uphill and over water par 3's.

2) Are the only templates used by the trio for par 3's: Eden, Biarritz, Redan, and Short? (i.e. are there other, perhaps less well-known holes that they repeated)

Punchbowl

3) Has anyone seen a punchbowl green used as a par 3 by the any of Macdonald, Raynor or Banks?

Fishers Island, Westhampton, Montclair to name a few

Thanks in advance.

Pat, isn't the punchbowl at Fisher's Island #4? A par 4.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

It's a combination "Alps" and "Punchbowl" hole and yes, it's a par 4.

The par 3's at Fishers are a 'short', "redan", "Biarritz and "Eden", so he ran out of par 3's.

[Sven Nilsen]

David:

In case you are questioning the clarity of your writing, it was obvious to the rest of us that you meant other par 3 templates.

[Bill Brightly]

Pat, I have always felt that the uphill par 3 at Sleepy Hollow was a good Eden, and faithful to the original in terms of the bunkering and green tilt.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

The 3rd hole at Sleepy Hollow never had that "Eden" feel.

Nothing like the original, the 18th at GCGC or the 13th at NGLA

[Scott Warren]

I'm pretty sure I recall Robert Mercer Deruntz posting about a punchbowl par three at Gardner's Bay up on the far end of Long Island, which if I recall correctly is a Banks course (or maybe Raynor).

[Bill Brightly]

Bill,

The 3rd hole at Sleepy Hollow never had that "Eden" feel.

Nothing like the original, the 18th at GCGC or the 13th at NGLA

What does an Eden "feel" like to you Patrick?

Consider the bunkering at Sleepy Hollow: the small, circular bunker guarding the front right is certainly a worthy Strath bunker. The left greenside bunker is nasty (as I recall from my only trip there) and perhaps a worthy Hill bunker. And I recall the green having a significant back-to-front pitch, like the original.

I agree it has a different feel than NGLA's hole, but who is to say this wasn't Macdonald's way of using the land on a fairly difficult piece of the terrian on the site?

(And what's this about my boy Billy D from Ridgewood kicking your butt at Mountain Ridge?)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It's true.

Bill D hit a driver into the left rough on the difficult uphill 18th that miraculously didn't go OB, then he hit a 3-wood to six feet Below the hole.

He's masquerading as a 9 and shot 76 from the Blue tees, while his Partner, masquerading as a 12 shot 79 to beat Terry M and myself one up with his par for net birdie on 18.

Meanwhile, in the other 4some, John had a hole in one on # 14.
Mike P,  Bob K and Rich had great day.

I had two foursomes from Ridgewood and I think everyone enjoyed the course, the facilities and the camaraderie.

The MRCC clubhouse is a Wendehack design and you can see the similarities with Ridgewood's clubhouse.

You should come over and play and bring your camera.

As to how an "Eden" feels, it doesn't feel "uphill" over a chasm........ To me

[Bill Brightly]

OK, it is uphill and over a chasm. But the bunkering definitely mirrors the original Eden, right?

Wouldn't this be a great example of Macdonald using a template FEATURE (the green complex) to fit the land, and NOT simply duplicating complete template holes?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Isn't the original original Eden at TOC?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill,

It probably serves a dual role, that of a template and a connector

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Isn't the original original Eden at TOC?

Yes it is.  Why would you think otherwise, unless you ignore commas ?

[Keith Phillips]

My understanding is that Banks did ECCC, not Raynor, but I could be wrong.

Montclair has four nines, three by Ross and the most recent (the 4th nine) designed by Banks in 1929, and both Par 3s on the 4th nine are terrific templates.  The 3rd is a 220 yard Redan and the 7th is a 160 yard Short.  I have been told that several of the other holes are templates as well, though I can only identify the 1st, which is a terrific par-5 Punchbowl.  I have heard the 2nd referred to as a Road hole, but I don't see the resemblance with TOC 17.

I would be interested if anyone has insight to these or other holes.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Keith,

Both par 3's at #4 nine are terrific.

The short, with the horseshoe spine is one of my favorites, with its steep, elevated banks.

If you look at some of the other iterations of the Road Hole green, at Piping Rock, NGLA and others, I think there is a resemblance to the 2nd green on # 4.

Could a case be made that the 4th on # 4 is a rendition of the "Cape" hole or a replica of Raynor's 6th at Southampton ?

Gotta run.

[Bill Brightly]

Here is a pretty good graphic picture of the 3rd at Sleepy Hollow. Pat is right, it does serve as a "connector" over some difficult terrain. Note the very cool wooden bridge that take the golfer over the gorge. I still think the bunkering replicates the Strath, Shelly and Hill bunkers at St. Andrews.



Photo by Patrick Kiser

[Keith Phillips]

I agree that 4 of 4 is very much a Cape hole - in its current configuration, however, there are 3 or 4 large oaks blocking the bold drive over the most-distant bunker - I am working to remedy that, so that the longest-hitters will have a risk-reward decision to consider.  I will do some research to see what I can learn about this hole and others.

[George_Bahto]

Dealing with the par-3's at Sleepy Hollow was an interesting exercise while Gil and I were attempting to get the “broken” routing into some form of a Macdonald-style concept.

We had a course originally built by Macdonald, albeit, “modestly less” than his usual designs.

We had his course, minus the five holes that were on property the club sold off.

We had a redesign my Tom Winton.

We had the Tillinghast section.

The Reverse Redan (#7) and the Short (16) are original Macdonald, as is the Biarritz which is now #7 on the lower, nine-hole course.

Present hole -3 is Macdonald’s Eden - very nice ravine between tee and green. We modified the right side, greenside bunkering but had to make it a two-stepped set of bunkers because of the rock under the surface.

Interestingly, the present 3rd green was once planned to be the green for the present 5th hole - totally impossible - so it was changed to its present config.

We added the pot bunker in front to make it appear more” Eden-ish.”

The right greenside bunker was just cleaned up in deepened slightly and originally we wanted to add a rear bunker but there is a huge water run-off problem coming off the hill from the 5-green area and money was better spent elsewhere on the course.

The elimination of the huge pine trees around the green made a huge difference in the look of the hole. As shown above, a very stunning hole as it the wonderful Short, #16.

3 of the par-3's are CBM.

The present 10th is part of the Tillinghast design - very picturesque with the pond and all, but not much of a hole - not much of a green, and the yardage is similar to the 3rd and 16th (Short). It is difficult to do much with that hole to make it “the longest par-3, which we are missing. Relocating the 10-green too the right make for too long a forced water carry and the rear portion of the [resent green is rock and we have the 11th tee close by.

We have some plans for the green ....................   We’ll see.

[George_Bahto]

I think Banks tried to blend his new 4th nine at Montclair GC to the other three Ross nines and but couldn't use some of the usual holes - instead taking using the topography given him.

What I like best is that he took you down about 200-ft on the first two holes - the par-5 punchbowled green and, yes, the 2nd is a Road hole-style green complex. He then tacked you back up the hill, from holes 3 to the ninth green, unlike Ross, who had three incredibly difficult (blind) greens finishing his three nines.

[Keith Phillips]

Thanks, George - I appreciate the perspective you and Pat bring to my understanding of Montclair - I have been at MGC 15 years but am just now getting a sense of the history of the place.  I admire what you and others have done at Essex County (phenomenal work), and I am excited about the potential to bring MGC back to its potential - we are making good progress but it is a process and will take some time.

[corey miller]

I believe Bill has pointed out in the past his belief that Macdonald used the par 3 holes (many of the "templates") to merge or connect difficult parts of the property, perhaps even picking these spots out first.  One could make the argument this was done at Sleepy with the short #16 being played from the same angle/view as a 19th century Hudson River School painting I have viewed while also traversing a giant chasm.

Both #3 (Eden?) and #16 (short) play over the same ravine, a most difficult spot on the property with few other options.

#7(reverse redan) plays from near the highest spot on the property strongly downhill, totally built along the rocky side of a hill.

#7 (lower course now not used in full 18 routing) previously #2 (biarritz) plays downhill (again a giant almost unsuitable area) to the lowest part of the property.

I do believe we have four original par 3 template "connectors"

I do share George's disdain for #10. lovely, quiet, remote spot but very weak green and of course the RTJ/Rees look with the obligatory stone retaining wall on the pond...Baltusrol, Round Hill, seen these moves before:)

as for modestly less from Mac than his usual designs (according to George) I agree wholeheartedly and though I do not have the benefit of having seen the "lost five holes" (which must have provided wonderful views as they rose to the higher ground to the left of #16 short)I have to think that Mac did provide an "all-world" routing on a most difficult piece of property.  Perhaps so well done that one fails to realize the severity of the terrain covered.  

[Alex Lagowitz]

My understanding is that Banks did ECCC, not Raynor, but I could be wrong.

Montclair has four nines, three by Ross and the most recent (the 4th nine) designed by Banks in 1929, and both Par 3s on the 4th nine are terrific templates.  The 3rd is a 220 yard Redan and the 7th is a 160 yard Short.  I have been told that several of the other holes are templates as well, though I can only identify the 1st, which is a terrific par-5 Punchbowl.  I have heard the 2nd referred to as a Road hole, but I don't see the resemblance with TOC 17.

I would be interested if anyone has insight to these or other holes.

Raynor drew up the plans for the course, but died before completion.  Banks was the one who completed the course, but the routing was Raynor.

[David Cronheim]

My understanding is that Banks did ECCC, not Raynor, but I could be wrong.

Montclair has four nines, three by Ross and the most recent (the 4th nine) designed by Banks in 1929, and both Par 3s on the 4th nine are terrific templates.  The 3rd is a 220 yard Redan and the 7th is a 160 yard Short.  I have been told that several of the other holes are templates as well, though I can only identify the 1st, which is a terrific par-5 Punchbowl.  I have heard the 2nd referred to as a Road hole, but I don't see the resemblance with TOC 17.

I would be interested if anyone has insight to these or other holes.

Raynor drew up the plans for the course, but died before completion.  Banks was the one who completed the course, but the routing was Raynor.

My understanding is that Raynor died with approximately 30 unfinished courses that Banks similarly constructed, though Raynor routed.