New Nicklaus Course near Blackwolf Run

[Jeff Goldman]

According to its website, "The Bull at Pinehurst Farms," the new Nicklaus course near Blackwolf Run, has been open for a while.  Has anyone played/seen it?  I may trot up there over July 4 weekend, but it's hard to give up the idea of playing Lawsonia and BWR for that sight unseen.

Jeff Goldman

[Chris Perry]

The layout on the website looks superb, particularly holes 5,8,11, 16 and 18.

Though it looks to be a place where the sprayer could lose a lot of balls.

[Jeff Shelman]

On a part work/part fun week in Wisconsin, I played both Lawsonia Links and The Bull and enjoyed both.

Obviously much has been written on this site about Lawsonia, so I won't go into it much, but the $27 twilight rate to walk and being able to complete 18 holes by myself in just under three hours without waiting was pretty much perfect. Is there a better value in golf than that?

Onto The Bull. I thought it was very good. Before playing it on Saturday I spoke with Gary D'Amato (the golf writer at the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel) and he said it was the best Jack course he's ever played and thinks it's the second-best public course in the state behind only Whistling Straights. That's pretty high praise.

Truthfully, I thought it lived up to the billing. Most of the holes are very interesting and the course is very challenging. Not surprisingly there are several forced carries so this is not for everybody. In addition, it's a course where you better pick the right set of tees or it's going to be a long day.

Among the holes I found to be most intersting were No. 5 (a par 4 where you have to carry a revine on both the tee shot and the approach), No. 7 (an interesting short par 4), No. 8 (a par 5 where you can choose one of two fairways for the second shot) and both par 5s on the back. No. 17 is a tough, tough par 5 where you have to hit a good tee shot to have a chance of carrying the H2O on the second shot. If you have to lay back, you then have about 200 yards for the third shot into a well-bunkered green.

In addition, the property -- a former dairy farm called Pinehurst Farms (hence the name) -- is very interesting. There are elevation changes, wooded holes, meadow-type holes and wetlands (some are man made). Jack turns holes both ways, the course has a good flow and there aren't any bad or boring holes. In addition, you have to hit shots.

Is it the second-best public in Wisconsin? That's up for debate as Lawsonia, University Ridge and the two Blackwolf courses are also good. Is it worth playing? Absolutely. At $115 ($85 twilight), it ain't cheap, but considering the huge pricetags at Whistling Straights and the Blackwolf courses (you can see a couple of the Meadows holes from the road to The Bull) it seems like a bit of a bargain.

[Jeff Shelman]

The one thing about most of the debates on here about which course is better is that both courses are usually pretty damn good. Is The Bull better than BWR River? That's in the eye of the beholder, but both are very good and both are worth playing.

[Jeff Goldman]

shel,  thanks for the evaluation.  The green fee is $115, a lot less than the Kohler courses.  I  think Shivas and I may be the only ones who prefer the River course to Whistling Straits.

Jeff Goldman

[cary lichtenstein]

Make that 3 who prefer the river course to Whistling Straits, although I think the River has some weak holes eg., 4 and the 14 I think, they share the same lake. They belong on another course, just took flat an modern.

There are great holes on the Meadow Course, as well as some weak holes., its been a while but if I remember correctly 1, 2, 12,13,14, 15, 17 ans 18.

[Jeff Goldman]

quassi, 4 on the meadow course is a ton of fun par 5 with strategic choice - to get a chance to hit the green in 2, you have to try to clear a bunker at the deepest part, or go to a narrow fairway to the right, and have a blind shot.  Otherwise, play safe left and lay up.  Cool pot bunker in front of the green if your on line but a little short.

Jeff Goldman

[CJ72]

shel,  thanks for the evaluation.  The green fee is $115, a lot less than the Kohler courses.  I  think Shivas and I may be the only ones who prefer the River course to Whistling Straits.

Jeff Goldman
NO, shevas is not the only one to prefer BWR to Whistling.  

[CJ72]

shel,  thanks for the evaluation.  The green fee is $115, a lot less than the Kohler courses.  I  think Shivas and I may be the only ones who prefer the River course to Whistling Straits.

[CJ72]

shel,  thanks for the evaluation.  The green fee is $115, a lot less than the Kohler courses.  I  think Shivas and I may be the only ones who prefer the River course to Whistling Straits.

I agree with the both of you

[A_Clay_Man]

Perhaps there is a clue to why some people (pga) think the WS course is better?

Since I only know BWR, what is it about WH that draws the praise? ANd is it something quantifiable? Differentiated?

Is eye candy a major fact?

[SPNC_Chris]

They sure are very explicit about the history of Pinehurst Farms and how it's been called that for 150 years. I can't help but think that ClubCorp (Pinehurst) is not happy about them using the name. Shoot, the town of PInehurst can't even call itself "Pinehurst." It's "The Village of Pinehurst."

Even if the Bull can use the Pinehurst name legally when applied to a golf course, I think they obviously chose to use the name to their advantage. Think they would use the farm part of the name if it were originally called "Oakhurst?"

[Matt_Ward]

Can someone post the details on a hole-by-hole yardage from the tips with course rating and slope info if that's known.

Many thanks ...

P.S. For the Wisconsin guys and others who've played the course -- I really love Lawsonia but have to wonder is this "new" Nicklaus course following Jack's earliest efforts in demands or is it the "new" Nicklaus one sees with such gems as Ocean Hammock in Palm Coast, FL.

Appreciate any info you can share ...

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, I will probably wait until next year to play it, or look for a late fall or early spring special.  $115 is still a lot to pay for golf in these parts.  However, I am not even capable of comparing JN courses, particularly to differentiate the old JN with the new.  

My understanding of the Pinehurst farms name is that it was an angus or holstein breeding facility that sent the seed all round the world.  I heard that the patriarch of the family passed away and the offspring were somewhat at odds as to what to do with the breeding operation.  

[Jeff Goldman]

Adam,

I think the reason WS is now the championship course (still in line for the 2007 senior and 2011 regular US Open) is length.  The River course maxes out under 7000 yards and a bunch of the holes we love would be pw, sw or lw for the pros.  In fact, I think no par 4 on the River course is longer than 465 or so.  I don't know if they'd consider playing the original BWR, where they can make a couple of par-5s (2, 8 from the meadow or 1 from the river) really long 4s

WS can make 465 the shortest par 4, except for the designated "short" par 4s.  

Jeff Goldman

[Matt_Ward]

RJ:

Did Jack rumble the land like Pete did at WS? I mean the Irish Course looks like the movie lot for "Saving Private Ryan."

Also, would be interested in comments about the green complexes because Jack seems to be moving away from the sharp edged tiers you see in plenty of his earlier designs.

Thanks!

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, it is pretty easy to imagine that JN did not "rumble" the land like Pete did.  But, to be sure of this, I'll just have to go there and give it a good looking over.  I did see the grading and site use plans submitted to the Sheboygan County land planning commissioner, while visiting his office.  He had on prominent display the plans for WS and Irish, and the Bull at Pinehurst plans appeared no where near as ambitious on paper.  The land planner did say that JN's team were very professional and enjoyable people to work with.  

Also, I would be interested to know if Bruce Borland had anything to do with the early permitting stages of the project.  I know it had been in planning stages since at least 1998, before Bruce died in the plane crash.  

[Michael Moore]

Not only does the course have a strange name, but so do the holes

Copyright
Blueprint
Peerless
Caravan
Follow On
Elation
Starz
Avant Garde
Dynasty


Renaissance
Medallian
Primetime
Escapade
Cornerstone
Landmark
Payday
High Life
Rock-n-Roll


Is this a ski mountain or a golf course?

Copyright??

[Paul Richards]

I've got a friend who says this course is AWESOME.  I can't wait to go see it for myself!

[golf444]

I recently played "The Bull"...again, Nicklaus disappoints...who is he building these courses for...about 1/2% of the golfers, that's who...76 rating with a 150 slope...come on Jack, the 70s are over...for the price, all 4 Kohler courses are better...and The Bog

[scorelow]

"...76 rating with a 150 slope..."   Maybe you should move up a tee.  That's the beauty of having multiple tee locations - you can play essentially 3-5 different courses based on your ability...

[golf444]

Have you seen the "easy tees"...I am a 6.7 index and was lucky to break 90 from 6700 yards...too penal, makes River Course look fair

[Paul Richards]

Jeff:

Heard recently from a friend that this is a definite "must-see"!  

Look forward to hearing your thoughts on it after your visit!

[golf444]

For those who want some reviews...check their website www.golfthebull.com...the press liked it

Note where they say Nicklaus lost a dozen balls and shot 90 at the Grand Opening...can you say too hard?

[Bob Barriger]

I played The Bull the day after the new nine opened in June.  Personally, I thought it was a very strong golf course.  It helps to have a great piece of proerty to work with.  At this point, the first 4 holes may have some homes built on them but after that it dives into the woods, #5 is a great 4 par. #7 is a nice short par 4. #9 and #18 are extrememly difficult and long holes.  I don't remember any weak holes on the course.  I do have one not so fond remembrance of a tree just off one of the tees that came into play from the tee box, we played that day.  We played the tips and it was a stout test.  It is worth the price if you take into account the prices of its neighboring courses.