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Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #75 on: July 19, 2012, 09:24:10 PM »

 It sounds like Prairie Club Dunes would be a great members course.

Jim, I think this is exactly right! Playing it once is almost a waste of time.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #76 on: July 19, 2012, 09:57:38 PM »
I find it interesting if not a study in human nature, that 15 years ago, let's call them the 'conoscenti' of golf design and architecture mavens were hearing and seeking out this bold new course in the Sand Hills, in the middle of no where and those that had early chances to play it were gushing and raving about it, rightfully so.  It brought a new dimension to the world of golf seekers, where a middle of no where destination offered a world class golf design unlike anything else in the U.S., and so the quest and era of destination golf, upon natural sand hill or dunes development began.  Then, about 1998, the same worker construction guys who worked for Coore and Crenshaw at the SHGC got an opportunity on a minor sand hill plot of land, no where near the dramatic real sand hills, but with enough flavor to design and construct this little intimate community modest course that had characteristics that were in the sand hill unique concept.  Wild Horse by Proctor and Axeland became a stop over on the trek to the big dramatic sand hill club, and its legend grew.  Then, it was becoming more clear to many golf seekers, dreamers and developers that the sand hills was a unique experience, and as far as just siting and designing more sand hill courses in the same flavor of excitement, the possibilities were only limited by the financial sense to throw money into development of another club destination in the middle of no-where because if the club offered the right level of amenities, the golf seekers would come.  In the interim, Axeland and Proctor did yet another modest pubic course, and it also had the flavor of the sand hills, with some dramatic vista which now included a lake, yet a front side even more sand hill exciting that Wild Horse (IMHO).  So, that Bayside development took the ideas further.  It proved that a public facility with more amenities could draw folk to vacation condos, a resort yet somewhat remote destination golf.  There were false starts like Prairie Sands which went belly up, but the concept of a bigger private club, with even more club exclusive amenities started big thinking developers to consider how much more could be done out there in the sand hills with big thinking, big amenity - remote location, destination golf.

In the interim we got the development of Bandon Resorts to also take the remote big time golf design, high amenity golf seekers to demonstrate the idea was viable. 

Then we got the Dismal original big thinkers, golf seeker, remote destination sand hills dreamers to go wild with a Nicklaus design and a facility, even more in the middle of no where, to take the big dramatic golf facility design further in the sand hill quest.

Not far behind and almost contemporaneously, we had the BallyNeal chop hill, sand hill flavor remote destination course, also with private club amenities.

We saw some financial misfires, yet bold entrepreneurs like Chris and Mr Schock, and whatever is the successor at BallyNeal, sticking with the concept and sand hill conviction that the quest for exciting bold golf is worth pursuing, even if many would be frightened of the amounts of funds that have slipped down the drain with sputtering financial starts and stops. 

Bringing us to the false start Doc Trimble, Gill Hanse initial concept at Prairie Club only to be carried out to even bigger ideas and concepts by Mr. Schock, with a dual courses; a big bold sand hill course and more intimate yet still sand hill-capstone canyon course, with a third big bold School house course perhaps in the near future.

We have Dismal River adding to the sand hill legend and quest for remote destination golf with the breathlessly awaited and already cult-like following of a Doak sand hill remote golf destination for these seekers of golf in the vast empty expanses of solitude with a touch of buddy comraderie.

And, what am I trying to say?  ::)

We are now picking fly pooh out of pepper rating these sand hill, remote destination, big bold, exciting courses where once we only had Sand Hills and a little town course in G-burg to enjoy.  We all seem to love the flavor and excitement of the sand hill firm& fast, humpty dumpty terrain, wide FWs with options galore, natural, remote, and challenging golf, unlike what most of us have for golf offerings on a regular basis.  We now have 8 and maybe a 9th sand hill destination courses with similar exciting bold designs and probably not 2% of the people nitpicking the design merits of these courses, can shoot within 5 strokes above their normal handicap on any of them in several tries.

If you love golf, and this sort of destination sand hill, bold golf;  embrace it, support it, don't criticize it based on nuances or over sophistication of tastes.  It is like we have golf heaven right here on earth, and we are nit picking which corner of heaven is more beautiful. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #77 on: July 19, 2012, 11:45:09 PM »
Gentleman... sometimes you just have to shake things up a bit! The love-fest was getting to me big time. Let me say I have met both Kyle and Will who did most of the shaping on the Dunes and I have plenty of respect for them and what they do. However architecture is meant to be experienced and critiqued in a constructive way.

Still on the issue of the width... I do not accept the issue of the big Nebraska winds as a legitimate reason for going with the widest fairways I have ever seen. Not Bandon nor the great links of Scotland, nor Sand Hills GC requires that much maintained turf to handle the winds. I do not buy the theory that you can/should be building holes that require strategic placements of tee shots over 60 yards apart in order to create really good golf holes... The water cost and use, head count, seed money, fertilizer cost and time it takes to mow 36 holes like this certainly doesn't help the cause of the club on any sort of bottom line accountability....

Back to the conditioning... 1.5 months ago it was soggy lush low mow blue grass. If it truely plays fast and firm, which doesn't mean rolling out drives, but legitimately run and bounce balls into green sites between then and now, then the drought and the heat must have it on the verge of going the other way, as the low mow blue is extremely tolerant.

The Dunes is clearly the better of the 2 courses. And I would have it on my modern top-100 list, but for those who are calling it a top-10 and a doak 8 (which would probably put it in about the top 75 in the world) are certainly the minority.


tell me where the ideal line is on this hole, and explain why the fairway is a solid 100 yards wide in the landing area?

... I'm also really enjoying the point of view Mr. Kavanaugh has on the subject

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #78 on: July 20, 2012, 01:36:00 AM »

tell me where the ideal line is on this hole, and explain why the fairway is a solid 100 yards wide in the landing area?

I think you really have to avoid puckering up and have the cajones to take the tiger line, threading it thru the 60 yd hogan's alley between lehmann's homage to hell bunker and the 6 inch high fescue on the left.  this heroic line is rewarded with as little as a six iron layup on your second shot.  bail to the 40 yard safe side on the right and you are faced with as much as a 4 hybrid layup on this true risk-reward par 5. 

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #79 on: July 20, 2012, 07:40:46 AM »

tell me where the ideal line is on this hole, and explain why the fairway is a solid 100 yards wide in the landing area?

I think you really have to avoid puckering up and have the cajones to take the tiger line, threading it thru the 60 yd hogan's alley between lehmann's homage to hell bunker and the 6 inch high fescue on the left.  this heroic line is rewarded with as little as a six iron layup on your second shot.  bail to the 40 yard safe side on the right and you are faced with as much as a 4 hybrid layup on this true risk-reward par 5. 


Com'On, True Risk?!.... Really?! I see 1% risk ;D

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #80 on: July 20, 2012, 08:31:24 AM »
Considering the Prairie Club is considerably out of my way to Dismal from either Omaha or Denver it is a great compliment that I care if I ever visit the resort again.  I now understand why a couple of my buddies loved the Dunes so dearly.  Since I am so keen on telling them how to run their resort they need to get rid of their slope and rating.  There is no reason to go on vacation and wreck your handicap playing a course that is far too easy if the wind does not blow.  Sand Hills and Dismal are the same way but they don't add the burden of posting career rounds. (based on rating and slope)

Sam Morrow

Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #81 on: July 20, 2012, 10:02:06 AM »
I find irony in talk of a Prairie Club love fest.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #82 on: July 20, 2012, 11:28:43 AM »
Considering the Prairie Club is considerably out of my way to Dismal from either Omaha or Denver it is a great compliment that I care if I ever visit the resort again.  I now understand why a couple of my buddies loved the Dunes so dearly.  Since I am so keen on telling them how to run their resort they need to get rid of their slope and rating.  There is no reason to go on vacation and wreck your handicap playing a course that is far too easy if the wind does not blow.  Sand Hills and Dismal are the same way but they don't add the burden of posting career rounds. (based on rating and slope)

Dismal has a slope and rating and a handicap computer right outside the main bathroom in the clubhouse.  I posted all 5 of my 5th major 9's.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #83 on: July 20, 2012, 11:32:24 AM »
threading it thru the 60 yd hogan's alley

astavrides:  The ghost of Ben Hogan may visit you in the night for describing a 60-yard-wide area as "hogan's alley" and I would expect him to be angry  ;)

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #84 on: July 20, 2012, 11:52:01 AM »
Considering the Prairie Club is considerably out of my way to Dismal from either Omaha or Denver it is a great compliment that I care if I ever visit the resort again.  I now understand why a couple of my buddies loved the Dunes so dearly.  Since I am so keen on telling them how to run their resort they need to get rid of their slope and rating.  There is no reason to go on vacation and wreck your handicap playing a course that is far too easy if the wind does not blow.  Sand Hills and Dismal are the same way but they don't add the burden of posting career rounds. (based on rating and slope)

Dismal has a slope and rating and a handicap computer right outside the main bathroom in the clubhouse.  I posted all 5 of my 5th major 9's.

Alex,

The cards they use for tournaments are left overs from before the changes that have made the course much more playable.  The course has not been re-rated and will not be.  I would suggest they burn those old cards if I wouldn't get a bill for their replacement.

note:  I think we would all agree that Dismal yields more birdies than any course on the planet of equal length and scope.  It is not ratable under the current USGA standards.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #85 on: July 20, 2012, 11:54:11 AM »
Considering the Prairie Club is considerably out of my way to Dismal from either Omaha or Denver it is a great compliment that I care if I ever visit the resort again.  I now understand why a couple of my buddies loved the Dunes so dearly.  Since I am so keen on telling them how to run their resort they need to get rid of their slope and rating.  There is no reason to go on vacation and wreck your handicap playing a course that is far too easy if the wind does not blow.  Sand Hills and Dismal are the same way but they don't add the burden of posting career rounds. (based on rating and slope)

Dismal has a slope and rating and a handicap computer right outside the main bathroom in the clubhouse.  I posted all 5 of my 5th major 9's.

Care to share with us participants the slope & rating for Dismal?

I'm not sure I understand the concept of no slope & rating at Sand Hills for example. I've heard the USGA wants to rate the golf course, but they are adamant against it. I don't know much about course rating, but aren't prevailing winds considered? It's not a perfect system because the weather is always presenting a different challenge, but that is not unique to the Sandhills of Nebraska. Should golf courses of the Pacific Northwest abandon course ratings in the winter months due to all the rain?

TK

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #86 on: July 20, 2012, 11:55:39 AM »
Considering the Prairie Club is considerably out of my way to Dismal from either Omaha or Denver it is a great compliment that I care if I ever visit the resort again.  I now understand why a couple of my buddies loved the Dunes so dearly.  Since I am so keen on telling them how to run their resort they need to get rid of their slope and rating.  There is no reason to go on vacation and wreck your handicap playing a course that is far too easy if the wind does not blow.  Sand Hills and Dismal are the same way but they don't add the burden of posting career rounds. (based on rating and slope)

Dismal has a slope and rating and a handicap computer right outside the main bathroom in the clubhouse.  I posted all 5 of my 5th major 9's.

Alex,

The cards they use for tournaments are left overs from before the changes that have made the course much more playable.  The course has not been re-rated and will not be.  I would suggest they burn those old cards if I wouldn't get a bill for their replacement.

note:  I think we would all agree that Dismal yields more birdies than any course on the planet of equal length and scope.  It is not ratable under the current USGA standards.

John,

Enlighten me, why is it not ratable?

TK

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #87 on: July 20, 2012, 12:07:26 PM »
Dismal is not ratable because the USGA sets a number that is not adjustable based on wind.  Take me for example:  I show up for the Branding and the conditions are perfect if you like no wind.  I shoot 69, 71 and go home.  That would have given me a couple of +5 or +6 scores that would have wrecked my 3.1 index just because I showed up to a remote course on a day the wind does not blow.

Now if the USGA allowed a course to adjust their rating based on wind speed of the day than we wouldn't have a problem.  They do have a system for terrible weather because you only use your 10 best scores so if I shoot a couple of 100's it has no effect on my index.

It's a flawed system that is broke in regions of extreme weather where courses are designed for elements that don't show up.  I also play all winter in the Mid-West and am not allowed to post scores for the same reason but opposite results.

Sam Morrow

Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #88 on: July 20, 2012, 12:13:17 PM »
Dismal is not ratable because the USGA sets a number that is not adjustable based on wind.  Take me for example:  I show up for the Branding and the conditions are perfect if you like no wind.  I shoot 69, 71 and go home.  That would have given me a couple of +5 or +6 scores that would have wrecked my 3.1 index just because I showed up to a remote course on a day the wind does not blow.

Now if the USGA allowed a course to adjust their rating based on wind speed of the day than we wouldn't have a problem.  They do have a system for terrible weather because you only use your 10 best scores so if I shoot a couple of 100's it has no effect on my index.

It's a flawed system that is broke in regions of extreme weather where courses are designed for elements that don't show up.  I also play all winter in the Mid-West and am not allowed to post scores for the same reason but opposite results.

I agree that something needs to be done in regards to extreme conditions. My home course is on the far Northwest suburbs of Houston, it's a Jim Fazio where he did some good things on a rice patty that usually plays very firm and fast. The wind almost always blows 15-20, well it was windier than usual this spring, many days where the wind was blowing 25-30 and I saw my scores balloon. I caught some crap for my handicap getting as high as it did but I was simply playing under the conditions we were given those days.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #89 on: July 20, 2012, 01:22:40 PM »
Care to share with us participants the slope & rating for Dismal?


according to the links on northern california golf association score posting website, from the tees we played, the front 9 is 36.5/135 and the back is 36.7/142.

Cory Lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #90 on: July 20, 2012, 01:34:22 PM »
Care to share with us participants the slope & rating for Dismal?
I posted my scores at 72.1, 138. Which I believe was the slope and rating from a hybrid set.  The pro told me we were playing pretty close to that set of tees.
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David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #91 on: July 20, 2012, 01:44:49 PM »
threading it thru the 60 yd hogan's alley

astavrides:  The ghost of Ben Hogan may visit you in the night for describing a 60-yard-wide area as "hogan's alley" and I would expect him to be angry  ;)

Hogan's Highway?
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

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