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Pete Balzer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #50 on: July 18, 2012, 12:13:48 PM »
Maybe Pete B. would not mind sharing what drew him to become a member over other courses in the region?  

1. Exceptional Golf, nice having 2 course. I believe the Pines compliments the Dunes very well.

2. Exceptional Value

3. Walkability

4.  Old School  is a teaser. I believe I read on this site, that Mr Doak said it was one of the best sites he's seen, where he didn't   get job.

5. Tanqueray as the well gin!

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2012, 01:41:53 PM »
On John K's post about identity crisis, I thought he was talking about trying to straddle the line between public and private.  Is one course still reserved for members only each day?   

Jason Hines

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2012, 06:52:47 PM »
Pete,

I believe your #1 and #5 reasons are listed backwards.  ;D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2012, 06:58:56 PM »
On John K's post about identity crisis, I thought he was talking about trying to straddle the line between public and private.  Is one course still reserved for members only each day?   

It still was the case as of a couple of months ago when I was looking to get up there for a few rounds on the front end of the 5th Major.

Jaeger Kovich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #54 on: July 18, 2012, 11:10:16 PM »
Top 10 Destination in the US... you guys have absolutely lost it!!! Both Wild Horse, an ideal public facility and Sand Hills are far superior, plus  the new course in Mullen will knock it down another peg.

First... lets hit those fast and firm conditions that were mentioned on page 1... NO CHANCE... Yes the greens are fast, when I was there about 1.5 months ago, the greens were at 12, but the rest of the course is Low Mow Bluegrass and it is super lush. This combo makes for extremely difficult to play anything running into the greens. Oh and the mow stripes... yuck!

Second... Both courses suffer from an extreme case of being over shaped. There is not one place on either of the 18s where the word restraint comes to mind. The greens contours are enormous, wild and contrived. But the greens are better than the surrounds. The countless waves, bumps, and un-needed movement around the greens doesn't add any real interest, and certainly does not tie into the landscape.... The Pines (Marsh) course suffers more from this than the Dunes, but both caught the fever and couldn't control it.

Third... The width... Yes golfclubatlas goes gaga over width, but width for the sake of width is a bazar design choice and very expensive way to keep your guests/members from losing balls. Another thing the excessive width does is throw off the entire scale of the course. With 80-100 yard wide fairways in places you have to increase the size/number of bunkers and the greens in order to make things compositionally fit back together... Dont bother arguing that it provides any sort of strategic values, if you need 100 yards of width to provide multiple lines to certain pins, there is something wrong with the greens.

Fourth... There are zero world class holes between the 36. The best holes on the property are found on the Horse Course! If I needed to pic out the 2 best holes from the big courses, they would be #2 and #7 on the Dunes course.

Fifth.. The bunkers. Give me a break! More so on the Pines than the Dunes, but come on, why are all those scabs, fingers, islands and the whopdy-doos (what i call the rounded shaping on the top faces) necessary? Have they not seen what blowouts in the sand hills actually look like? Have they never experienced the wind in Nebraska? These things are just gonna get pounded by wind and turn into absolute lunacy as they evolve into something totally different. Look what has happened at DR and Sanhills, the weather is just brutal on bunkers out here and with 100 yard wide fairways, the staff probably wont be spending a ton of time on the bunkers.

Lastly... I think the semi-private model is actually quite smart. In this area where it is hard to travel to multiple times per year for members, any additional revenue that can be generated by locals, the Omaha/Lincoln crowd or even a national source should be welcomed. I cannot imagine over crowding is ever a real issue. But to go along with that ball pyramids on the range, Prairie Club labels on the water bottles, having way to many staff, and things like that just add to the cost that will in the end turn people away.

I think Dunes course is rated pretty much where it should be on the golfweek modern list, right around 100, and the Pines course is clearly a step down from that... Both are very walkable, but not sure how that makes it a top 10 destination in the US!


I could have done an entire thread on the bunkers, but here are some pics that crack me up!


Wait for this one get even deeper via wind erosion!

Lots of Whoopdy-Do's on #3 of the pines.

Sam Morrow

Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #55 on: July 18, 2012, 11:14:29 PM »
When I was there a month ago I found both courses to be playing firm and fast.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012, 10:20:15 AM »
Jaeger, I enjoyed your comments - thanks for weighing in.  I think your third and fifth points are well stated and merited.

I can't think of a single golfer I've played with in the past ten years that uses the ground more than I do, albeit by default.  Both courses at PC were perfectly firm and fast playing fields when I was there, then again it was 103 degrees.

Sorry about your horrific lie in the bunker.  Is that where you aimed or did the bunker move while your ball was in flight?

I don't consider private clubs as destinations for the "retail" golfer.  Also, you cite the fantastic Wild Horse, but let's be honest - as good as it is it's a hit-n-run add on for the pilgrams to Sand Hills.

Please name your top ten resorts / public golf destinations in America.  I'll spot you Pinehurst, Bandon Dunes, Pebble Beach and Koehler, WI and suggest The Greenbrier, The Homestead, French Lick and Kiawah Island and World Woods.  

Bogey  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:35:55 AM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2012, 11:02:02 AM »
Jaeger, I am glad too you said BS on some of this love for love sake. Granted when the first love comes from our favorite tour guide at the Jack Daniels distillery it hurts a little. These courses do not appear to be strong enough, although I give Bogie aka Jack Black and RJ lots of credibility on these issues. I am curious about the financial set up and current situation at sutton bay. I am of the opinion these places need to be zero to almost zero debt with significant cash reserves cover loses which will carry them through the next 5 years. Then the world will hopefully shake out a bit and we will have some sense of what the world will be like going forward. I know Sand Hills is in great shape to hang. We also know Bally Neal hit a huge bump. I am not sure about DR but hope they are playing with cash and not debt. At the end all of us hope golf in the Sand Hills lives to see another day and only grow better and stronger.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:57:45 PM by Tiger_Bernhardt »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2012, 11:32:54 AM »
They both played firm and fast on my visit in May. The mow stripes are unobtrusive in the pics I have from that visit.

Really, we're complaining about too many options now? What is the right number of options per hole on a course that frequently sees 30+ mph winds? I found the strategy on the Dunes course pretty straightforward given the wind when I played, but could also see how the strategy for a given hole would change dramatically if the wind changed.

I do think some of the bunkering and shaping on the Pines is over the top. I loved greens like the 6th, but some of the ones like 3 seemed a little silly. But I thought the Dunes course was aesthetically fantastic. If no one thinks 4, 8, 13, and 16 on the Dunes are world class holes, maybe I'm just confused.

I love Wild Horse, and would probably choose it over the Pines course. But both of those courses are probably Doak 6s. To me, the Dunes is a Doak 8 and well worth a trip to the Sandhills on its own. That doesn't put it above of the usual suspects in the Sandhills, but it does put it on par with some of them despite a comparable lack of attention on this site.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2012, 12:26:45 PM »
I love Wild Horse, and would probably choose it over the Pines course. But both of those courses are probably Doak 6s. To me, the Dunes is a Doak 8 and well worth a trip to the Sandhills on its own. That doesn't put it above of the usual suspects in the Sandhills, but it does put it on par with some of them despite a comparable lack of attention on this site.

Jason:

You need to go to that thread where George Pazin posted his formula for converting other people's Doak scale ratings to my own.  ;)

I haven't had a chance to see The Prairie Club yet.  I figured I would get over there while we are working on Dismal River, but for now I'm immersed in trying to make the new course at Dismal better than the neighbors, every minute I have time to be out there.

I've heard lots of reviews of the Dunes course from others -- some better than others -- and I expect good things from it, because the main shapers were both interns for us on multiple projects.  I would be surprised if I thought it was an 8 on the Doak scale ... but I am surprised anytime I see a course that's an 8 on the Doak scale.  It's not that easy a standard to get to.  To date, there are fewer than 100 of them in the world.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #60 on: July 19, 2012, 01:29:24 PM »
The only reason that I don't toss $2,000 a year their way is because of this notion that their members should not have to associate with the likes of me or my friends.  If I'm going to play 36 holes at a single facility it is preferable to be on both courses in the same day.  If I'm going to have a drink and a few laughs it is preferable to be where people are having the most laughs.  For those who don't know they have an upstairs members only bar where second class citizens can sit below on the porch and enjoy the privileged laughter of the members above.  I'm not positive but it seems like even the pool tables are off limits to the $500/day rubes.

You can call me petty all you want but I pay dues at a ton of clubs where we treat everyone who is on property exactly the same.  I mean really, who travels a thousand miles to be looked down upon by the employee of the month of the Valentine Ford dealership.  Get over yourselves and either share your courses or don't.

Tyler Kearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2012, 01:50:19 PM »
John,

I completely agree, a golf club should treat everybody on the grounds equally. Being treated like a guest can seriously detract from the golf experience. Apart from the golf itself, visiting Dismal River & Sand Hills a few weeks ago was an absolute pleasure because of the warm reception and treatment I received, making me feel welcomed and comfortable for the duration of my visit.

TK

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #62 on: July 19, 2012, 01:54:23 PM »
Tom, it's pretty clear you grade a little tougher on your own scale than I do. My only real point is that the Dunes course is quite a bit better than the very good Wild Horse, at least in my eyes, and also that I think it's well worth a flight, rental car, and hotel stay to see even if you weren't going to play any other courses for whatever reason. I haven't played enough courses to call it a world top 100, but Mark Saltzman is pretty well traveled and calls it a Top 10 modern.

I hope to play Ballyneal and Dismal River in the near future and get a better idea of where it rates among Sandhills courses.

I've seen people on this site rate Lawsonia an 8 after the Pritchard renovation (erroneously, I'm sure, but still very highly rated). I think that seems just a bit high for Lawsonia, but I do think the Dunes is quite a bit better.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #63 on: July 19, 2012, 03:07:49 PM »
I haven't played enough courses to call it a world top 100, but Mark Saltzman is pretty well traveled and calls it a Top 10 modern.


One well-traveled person's opinion does not make a consensus, it makes it one person's opinion. 

Not to pick on Mark, but if we're going to start using his rankings as a benchmark then I'm going to need to know a little bit more about what he looks for in a course.  I have a pretty good idea of how Tom comes up with his analysis.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #64 on: July 19, 2012, 03:26:19 PM »
Tom, it's pretty clear you grade a little tougher on your own scale than I do. My only real point is that the Dunes course is quite a bit better than the very good Wild Horse, at least in my eyes, and also that I think it's well worth a flight, rental car, and hotel stay to see even if you weren't going to play any other courses for whatever reason. I haven't played enough courses to call it a world top 100, but Mark Saltzman is pretty well traveled and calls it a Top 10 modern.

I've seen people on this site rate Lawsonia an 8 after the Pritchard renovation (erroneously, I'm sure, but still very highly rated). I think that seems just a bit high for Lawsonia, but I do think the Dunes is quite a bit better.

Jason:

Not to belabor the point, but the thing about the Doak scale is that every point on the scale is like a quantum level.  A 7 is a LOT better than a 6.  People make that mistake all the time ... if I like course B better than course A, and course A was a 6, then B must be a 7 or an 8.  Not really -- there are lots of 6's which are separated only by individuals' preferences.  If two courses are reasonably comparable, they're both 6's.  

They also make false comparisons, of which you provided a great example just above.  Lawsonia was actually rated a 6 in The Confidential Guide -- not an 8.  It may be better now than when I saw it, but it's got a better chance of still being a 6 than it does of being an 8.  But you started your comparison with an 8 that was not an 8.  GIGO.

I am actually wrestling with this idea in considering the update of the book, just now.  If I limit the book to the top 800 or 1000 courses in the world, to keep the size of it reasonable, then the majority of the new additions are going to be 6's ... and there won't be a very big range of courses in the book at all, just a lot of 6's and 7's and a few 8's, 9's and 10's.  It's almost like I need a broader scale to do it right, but I am wary of changing it, even though my wife said just yesterday, it's my scale and I can amend it if I think that's the right thing to do.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 03:30:04 PM by Tom_Doak »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #65 on: July 19, 2012, 04:05:46 PM »
Barney, there are club guys and there are course guys.  You're the former.  I'm the latter.  

Anybody who can sell Fords in Valentine, Nebraska deserves every privilege he can garner.  Big Ass Pete's?  Not so much.

Bogey
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 04:07:46 PM by Michael_Hendren »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #66 on: July 19, 2012, 04:14:16 PM »
Tom, I must not have articulated my post very well. I understand that it's a quantum scale, and I used Lawsonia as an example not of an actual 8, but of a course that gets rated very highly by many that I think is quite a long way below the Dunes. I haven't played the breadth of courses that some on the board have played, so I picked Lawsonia as an example of a course that I think is considerably weaker than the Dunes because I know many on here have played it. I'm fully aware you gave it a 6 in the Confidential Guide. My point is just that it's at least a quantum point or two below the Dunes course, at least for me. And I love Lawsonia.

Regardless of the scale we're using, the Dunes course is CONSIDERABLY better than courses like Wild Horse, Lawsonia, and Erin Hills among those that I've played. I thought it was closer to Pebble Beach than to those courses.

And Sven, I'm not really sure what your point is. I didn't suggest Mark liking a course makes it a consensus wonder of the world. My point is that THERE IS NO CONSENSUS on the Dunes course because it's often disregarded on this board in comparison to other Sandhills courses. Few have played it. Among those who have played it, it's getting a lot of very strong reviews. Since Tom Doak made it clear that he hasn't played it, I suggest you trust Mark's opinion over his when it comes to the Dunes. Better yet, play it on your next trip to the Sandhills and develop your own.

Opinions are like assholes: Using someone else's is just gross.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #67 on: July 19, 2012, 04:19:19 PM »

Barney, there are club guys and there are course guys.  You're the former.  I'm the latter. 

Anybody who can sell Fords in Valentine, Nebraska deserves every privilege he can garner.  Can't begrudge the working man. Remember your roots.

Bogey

Mike,

Give me a break. I doubt if you would have gone out of your way to see The Prairie Club if you would have been limited to one course each day.  For a civilian like me that is two days and $600 if I want my own room.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #68 on: July 19, 2012, 04:47:00 PM »
I haven't played enough courses to call it a world top 100, but Mark Saltzman is pretty well traveled and calls it a Top 10 modern.


One well-traveled person's opinion does not make a consensus, it makes it one person's opinion. 

Not to pick on Mark, but if we're going to start using his rankings as a benchmark then I'm going to need to know a little bit more about what he looks for in a course.  I have a pretty good idea of how Tom comes up with his analysis.

Sven, I've posted my thoughts on a lot of golf courses on GCA.com.  I certainly don't expect my ratings/opinions to be used as a benchmark, but I've been told by some that they respect my opinion... I am humbled and appreciative of the kind words.  


Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #69 on: July 19, 2012, 05:43:50 PM »
I'd have to agree with the sentiments of getting rid of the private/public model.  As most make a massive effort just to get there, having to wait around another day to see the other course is a bit of a waste.

At the very least, make a chunk of afternoon tee times available on the private course to those who have already played a morning round at the public course...

Jim Colton

Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2012, 05:44:22 PM »
I think Jaeger raises a valid point about the width, and given he has a background in the field, I'm prone to hear him out on it and explore the idea a little further? Realizing that it's on a windy site, how wide is too wide? I know next to nothing about irrigation heads and costs, but at some point is there a diminishing marginal return to every extra yard of fairway? Would PC have been better off (from a course quality and/or profitability standpoint) at 90% of its current width? I think it's safe to assume that the other courses in the 'neighborhood' probably have similar wind conditions but with less width, but does that mean they are lacking in terms of strategic options and replayability as a result?

To Mark's credit, I know that he played the Dunes course over multiple days, multiple tee boxes and different wind conditions, so I think he was able to get an appreciation for the different options and angles that can come into play.

As to John K's point about identity crisis, I do recall articles and press releases in the early days before and immediate after opening. One article would position PC as the "Bandon of the Midwest", i.e. the next great golf resort destination. The next one would talk about the need to join now before they close their doors for good to outside play.

astavrides

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club New
« Reply #71 on: July 19, 2012, 06:16:18 PM »
.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2012, 09:59:19 PM by astavrides »

Jason Thurman

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #72 on: July 19, 2012, 08:55:39 PM »
I think Jaeger raises a valid point about the width, and given he has a background in the field, I'm prone to hear him out on it and explore the idea a little further? Realizing that it's on a windy site, how wide is too wide? I know next to nothing about irrigation heads and costs, but at some point is there a diminishing marginal return to every extra yard of fairway? Would PC have been better off (from a course quality and/or profitability standpoint) at 90% of its current width? I think it's safe to assume that the other courses in the 'neighborhood' probably have similar wind conditions but with less width, but does that mean they are lacking in terms of strategic options and replayability as a result?

I'm not sure if there's a point where things are just too wide. I do think, though, that a big part of what makes the course unique is its width. It's not the only wide course, and it's not the only course with options. But it's the only course I've ever played where the combination of fairway width and hazards within those fairways makes many holes play as potentially four or five different holes.
Most courses with options give three or four alternate strategies to play a given hole, but the strategies are centered around one or two features. For instance, a player who hugs the bunker on the inside of a dogleg might get an easier approach, while the player who bails out to the safe side of the fairway faces a trickier approach. But both players are ultimately playing to the same fairway and within 20 yards or so of each other.

On the DUnes course, holes like the 13th are broken up by landing area bunkers such that they almost have three or four totally separate fairway corridors, each with its own strategies. So rather than thinking on the tee "How close do I want to get to the bunker?", the thought shifts to "Which corridor am I going to shoot for?" and THEN "How close do I want to get to the bunker?" On top of that, because of the wind and the size of the greens, the preferred "corridor" changes from day to day and from pin placement to pin placement, and the preferred angle from within a given corridor changes too.

That's what makes the course special to me. It's multi-layered options and extremely complex strategy, and yet the features are presented in a way that's obvious enough to make it possible to choose a correct strategy even for a first-time player. It admittedly may be too much to take in for some, but I found it a total blast. It didn't hurt that I hit probably 40% of my shots on the line that I wanted and got to feel the satisfaction of executing the strategies I chose (that's a good number for this 10 handicapper).

So could they do with less width? Maybe. But I do think the course uses width differently than any other that I've played or seen by using it to create multiple holes and corridors within a single fairway.
"There will always be haters. That’s just the way it is. Hating dudes marry hating women and have hating ass kids." - Evan Turner

Some of y'all have never been called out in bold green font and it really shows.

Mark Saltzman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #73 on: July 19, 2012, 09:06:25 PM »
I think Jaeger raises a valid point about the width, and given he has a background in the field, I'm prone to hear him out on it and explore the idea a little further? Realizing that it's on a windy site, how wide is too wide? I know next to nothing about irrigation heads and costs, but at some point is there a diminishing marginal return to every extra yard of fairway? Would PC have been better off (from a course quality and/or profitability standpoint) at 90% of its current width? I think it's safe to assume that the other courses in the 'neighborhood' probably have similar wind conditions but with less width, but does that mean they are lacking in terms of strategic options and replayability as a result?



Jim, a valid point and I think you have perhaps seen a decent discussion on this elsewhere.

When I played Ballyneal (which I have said many times is one of my favourite golf courses) it was not very windy.  Whatever wind there was always blew from the same direction.  Does Ballyneal play equally well (or even close to equally well) in different winds?

The wind in the Sand Hills is so strong that playing in different wind conditions means a single golf course will play drastically differently based on wind direction.  The Prairie Club (Dunes) is almost two golf courses is one, designed to play in two dead-opposite winds.  Between the different tee options / fairway width / hazard and feature placement, the golf course is more elastic than any I have ever seen.


Jim Colton

Re: A Great Day at Prairie Club
« Reply #74 on: July 19, 2012, 09:19:55 PM »
Mark,

  Good answer. Instead of talking about Ballyneal on a Prairie Club thread, I'll just say that I'd probably enjoy the elasticity at PCD. I'm finding more and more that design variety in terms of direction, options in differing conditions, continually interesting and varied challenges over dozens or hundreds of plays is what I value probably more than anything in a golf course. It sounds like Prairie Club Dunes would be a great members course.